Snoke vs. Count Dooku

Started by Galan00716 pages

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only two alternative explanations that have been offered are:
[list]
[*]Sheev could've jumped into Snoke but didn't because he was waiting on a perfect vessel (really dumb for the reasons described on the previous page)
[*]Sheev would've jumped into Snoke but couldn't because Snoke was too corrupt? genetically dissimilar? which requires a number of unproven conditions to be accepted and flies in the face of available evidence since Snoke is a product of the same program that created Rey's father and, ultimately, Rey herself
[/list]

My explanation is objectively far better than these alternatives. It requires the fewest number of assumptions and is the most concretely supported by the lore.

I'll detail these possibilities a bit more later on, but there's also a plausible third alternative we've discussed: that undead RoS Palpatine > RotJ Palpatine. In that case, Snoke being unable to house the power of RoS Palpatine wouldn't preclude the notion that Snoke himself could still be on par with RotJ Palpatine.

*And to clarify, I couldn't care less what level of power Snoke wields. He could be TPM Palpatine-level, RotS Palpatine-level, or RotJ Palpatine-level -- doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I'm just explaining why I don't necessarily think he *has to* be capped below the level of RotJ Palpatine, simply because he wasn't used as a vessel.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The lore implies Sidious had some sort of Sith purpose in mind for Kylo, perhaps as an apprentice to his reborn self. TROS Visual Dictionary and the Star Wars Book seem to indicate as much. We know from StarWars.com's databank that Sidious intended to take Rey as a vessel from the start despite his edict to Kylo that she die. Likely, then, Sheev intended to possess Rey and have Kylo as an apprentice. This would also explain why Sheev is pissed when he senses Leia has triggered Kylo's redemption.
But again: if Palpatine was so desperate to jump into another vessel that he'd actually be willing to inhabit the body of a crippled gimp, then it seems unlikely that he would be unwilling to possess Kylo, simply because he might've intended for Kylo to be his apprentice later on. This implies that Palpatine cared more for securing an apprentice than he cared for his own self-preservation... Which I have a hard time accepting for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or perhaps there is indeed a genetic component. That has nothing to do with my point, which is that Snoke (a genetic offshoot of the Emperor, like Rey's father and Rey herself) is clearly too weak to serve as even an interim host for Sheev, which is why Sheev remains in his miserable undead form for decades.
Okay.

So if there was indeed a series of specific genetic components required in a clone body, of which had to be in place for the ritual to be successful(which I do agree is a possibility), then it goes back to points I've made earlier revolving around that subject:

Perhaps Snoke, being a grossly mutated strandcast(or "unnatural abomination", as the novel indicates), simply did not possess the cohesive/precise genetic structure that was required in a suitable vessel, and was therefore completely unusable in that capacity from the onset. So perhaps Palpatine simply could not even attempt to use him as a vessel at all(because the aforementioned genetic elements were lacking), and instead opted to use Snoke as a puppet while he waited for the "perfect" vessel, with the "perfect" genetic structure(ie. Rey), to fall into his hands.

Originally posted by Azronger
😐

...that's the part where he cites Sheev as an example. Nothing you've said counteracts my point. I repeat:

So you're saying what? That Luke was comparing Snoke's power to that of a random Sith that he'd never encountered?

Lol ok.....

Originally posted by Galan007
I'll detail these possibilities a bit more later on, but there's also a plausible third alternative we've discussed: that undead RoS Palpatine > RotJ Palpatine. In that case, Snoke being unable to house the power of RoS Palpatine wouldn't preclude the notion that Snoke himself could still be on par with RotJ Palpatine.

*And to clarify, I couldn't care less what level of power Snoke wields. He could be TPM Palpatine-level, RotS Palpatine-level, or RotJ Palpatine-level -- doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I'm just explaining why I don't necessarily think he *has to* be capped below the level of RotJ Palpatine, simply because he wasn't used as a vessel.

That's not a "third alternative," that's a potential contextualization of my conclusion, which is that Snoke is too weak to contain Sheev's spirit.

Regardless of whether Sheev's power increased negligibly, dramatically, or not at all between the time of his death at Endor and Snoke's creation, it is clear that Snoke's body is not viable to sustain the Emperor's spirit. Palpatine is more powerful than what Snoke is able to contain.

Once that fact is accepted, then Sidious66 and his opponents can discuss the implications this has for Snoke's relationship to ROTJ!Sheev's power.

But again: if Palpatine was so desperate to jump into another vessel that he'd actually be willing to inhabit the body of a crippled gimp, then it seems unlikely that he would be unwilling to possess Kylo, simply because he might've intended for Kylo to be his apprentice later on. This implies that Palpatine cared more for securing an apprentice than he cared for his own self-preservation... Which I have a hard time accepting for obvious reasons.

Historically, apprentices are little more than throwaway trinkets for Palpatine. He would certainly never put their well-being above his own.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. I don't have a position or a commitment as to why Sheev didn't try to possess Kylo, I'm simply explaining that the lore suggests Sheev was preparing to employ Kylo as an apprentice and not a vessel and speculating as to why that might be. This is one option that I have in no way committed to.

Okay.

So if there was indeed a series of specific genetic components required in a clone body, of which had to be in place for the ritual to be successful(which I do agree is a possibility), then it goes back to points I've made earlier:

Perhaps Snoke, being a grossly mutated strandcast(or "unnatural abomination", as the novel indicates), simply did not possess the cohesive/precise genetic structure that was required in a suitable vessel, and was therefore completely unusable in that capacity from the onset. So perhaps Palpatine simply could not even attempt to use him as a vessel at all(because the aforementioned genetic elements were lacking), and instead opted to use Snoke as a puppet while he waited for the "perfect" vessel, with the "perfect" genetic structure(ie. Rey), to fall into his hands.

But this... has no evidence. There is an evidence-shaped void, distinct and howling.

We know Snoke is a product of the same program that created Rey and Rey's father.

We know Snoke was created with the intention of housing Sidious's spirit since that was the entire purpose of the program.

We know Snoke's body is in better condition than Sidious's clone body.

We know that Snoke is weaker than Sidious.

We know Sheev has inert copies of Snoke on hand.

From these facts, I conclude that Snoke was too weak to serve as the Emperor's vessel. This is why one was fished out of the aquarium to serve as a proxy/punching bag for his future apprentice [Kylo] and the others were left to list in their test tube.

This aligns far better with the available facts than your baseless assumption that Snoke, who was created with the purpose of serving as the Emperor's meatsuit, could have but didn't because idk maybe he's too genetically different?

I see what Tempest and galan are both saying, and I actually can't disagree with either of them.

The lack of detail provided on essence transfer (and the jumbled mess made of that ability in ROS) makes it really hard to decide what was actually needed in a body for Sidious to transfer himself into it.

Originally posted by ares834
Ummm... What? How does temporarily lending Kylo a fleet equate at all with sharing a conciseness for all eternity?

Ummmm that wasn’t my point?

Why would he let Kylo take over his fleet if he has “big hang ups” with the Skywalkers

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
I see what Tempest and galan are both saying, and I actually can't disagree with either of them.

The lack of detail provided on essence transfer (and the jumbled mess made of that ability in ROS) makes it really hard to decide what was actually needed in a body for Sidious to transfer himself into it.

But all of the available evidence suggests that Palpatine couldn't inhabit a Snoke strandcast due to them not being enough to sustain his spirit.

The example with Kylo Ren, IMO, doesn't hold up. Palpatine was never interested in inhabiting him from the beginning, so that would rule out his reason for not wanting Kylo as a vessel as being a special case not related to Snoke. In other words, just because we don't have an explanation for why he didn't want to use Kylo's body, doesn't mean we should toss out all the evidence that indicate Snoke's body was too weak for Palpatine.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Ummmm that wasn’t my point?

Why would he let Kylo take over his fleet if he has “big hang ups” with the Skywalkers?

Why are you asking this? The "question" I posed very obviously addresses this. It's because temporarily lending Kylo a fleet is irrelevant compared to spending eternity together.
Using Kylo a temporarily pawn? Fine. Having him as an everlasting roommate? Not so fine.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's not a "third alternative," that's a potential contextualization of my conclusion, which is that Snoke is too weak to contain Sheev's spirit.

Regardless of whether Sheev's power increased negligibly, dramatically, or not at all between the time of his death at Endor and Snoke's creation, it is clear that Snoke's body is not viable to sustain the Emperor's spirit. Palpatine is more powerful than what Snoke is able to contain.

Once that fact is accepted, then Sidious66 and his opponents can discuss the implications this has for Snoke's relationship to ROTJ!Sheev's power.

Okay?

It is still a plausible third option, regardless. Because if undead RoS Palpatine is indeed > RotJ Palpatine, it makes sense that Snoke wouldn't be able to sustain his power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. I don't have a position or a commitment as to why Sheev didn't try to possess Kylo, I'm simply explaining that the lore suggests Sheev was preparing to employ Kylo as an apprentice and not a vessel and speculating as to why that might be. This is one option that I have in no way committed to.
You mentioned why Palpatine may have chosen not to transfer his essence into Kylo. I mentioned why that still doesn't make sense to me.

That's how these discussions work, no?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But this... has no evidence. There is an evidence-shaped void, distinct and howling.

We know Snoke is a product of the same program that created Rey and Rey's father.

We know Snoke was created with the intention of housing Sidious's spirit since that was the entire purpose of the program.

We know Snoke's body is in better condition than Sidious's clone body.

We know that Snoke is weaker than Sidious.

We know Sheev has inert copies of Snoke on hand.

From these facts, I conclude that Snoke was too weak to serve as the Emperor's vessel. This is why one was fished out of the aquarium to serve as a proxy/punching bag for his future apprentice [Kylo] and the others were left to list in their test tube.

This aligns far better with the available facts than your baseless assumption that Snoke, who was created with the purpose of serving as the Emperor's meatsuit, could have but didn't because idk maybe he's too genetically different?

Heh. This sort of "vigor" reminds me of the good ol' days. 👆

Anyway, that segment of my post was in response to the idea that specific/precise genetic components may have been required in a clone body in order for the ritual to be successful(which you *seemed* to agree might be possible.)

Therefore my subsequent response was directed solely toward that possibility. Nothing more.

-----------------

Anyway, I'm not saying that you guys are wrong here -- your conclusions may very well be correct. Again, I am just saying that other options could also be possible, given that we have not been provided with any definitive answers at this point.

Originally posted by Sheev
So you're saying what? That Luke was comparing Snoke's power to that of a random Sith that he'd never encountered?

Lol ok.....

No, I'm saying that he's not necessarily comparing Snoke to any particular Sith but merely positing he is of equivalent stature to them. Star Wars has dark side factions besides the Sith like the Inquisitors and other Dark Jedi, which Luke has encountered before, but they all pale in comparison to the Sith. Ergo, his appraisal of Snoke as a Sith Lord in all but name conveys his formidability in a general sense as among the highest echelons of dark siders, but Luke's not necessarily making a comparison to any individual Sith.

Originally posted by ares834
Why are you asking this? The "question" I posed very obviously addresses this. It's because temporarily lending Kylo a fleet is irrelevant compared to spending eternity together.
Using Kylo a temporarily pawn? Fine. Having him as an everlasting roommate? Not so fine.

You seemed pretty confused so I was clarifying for you.

Except he wasn’t using him as a temporary pawn. He fully intended on letting Kylo take over in his place.

Originally posted by Dominis
But all of the available evidence suggests that Palpatine couldn't inhabit a Snoke strandcast due to them not being enough to sustain his spirit.

The example with Kylo Ren, IMO, doesn't hold up. Palpatine was never interested in inhabiting him from the beginning, so that would rule out his reason for not wanting Kylo as a vessel as being a special case not related to Snoke. In other words, just because we don't have an explanation for why he didn't want to use Kylo's body, doesn't mean we should toss out all the evidence that indicate Snoke's body was too weak for Palpatine.

But you can't just handwave away Kylo here.

Because what you guys are basically saying is that Sidious was willing to body hop into ANY vessel as long as it was at least slightly better then his undead body (why else would he consider Snoke right)? So if thats the case then why wouldn't Sidious have tried body hopping into a guy who would have been perfectly suited to the role of his host?

Originally posted by Azronger
No, I'm saying that he's not necessarily comparing Snoke to any particular Sith but merely positing he is of equivalent stature to them. Star Wars has dark side factions besides the Sith like the Inquisitors and other Dark Jedi, which Luke has encountered before, but they all pale in comparison to the Sith. Ergo, his appraisal of Snoke as a Sith Lord in all but name conveys his formidability in a general sense as among the highest echelons of dark siders, but Luke's not necessarily making a comparison to any individual Sith.
So based on your interpretation of Luke's quote, what level do you think he was ranking Snoke at?

You seemed pretty confused so I was clarifying for you.

Except he wasn’t using him as a temporary pawn. He fully intended on letting Kylo take over in his place.

It was a pretty obviously a snarky reply.

And what the hell were you watching? Sheev's goal was to have Rey take his place not Kylo. That's literally how this entire discussion started as Sheev wanted to body hop into Rey not Kylo. Kylo was but a pawn to get her.

Originally posted by ares834
It was a pretty obviously a snarky reply.

And what the hell were you watching? Sheev's goal was to have Rey take his place not Kylo. That's literally how this entire discussion started as Sheev wanted to body hop into Rey not Kylo. Kylo was but a pawn to get her.


I know that dude I’m being sarcastic.

That’s what he said after Kylo Ren turned to the light. Kylo was a moment away from killing Rey before Leia interfered. Then Sidious says to Pryde that their plan was ruined by the princess. So it seems like he fully intended on Kylo taking over.

I was watching the Rise of Skywalker. What were you watching?

Originally posted by Sheev
So based on your interpretation of Luke's quote, what level do you think he was ranking Snoke at?

There's no exact answer. Luke's only personal encounters with Sith include Vader and Palpatine, so that's quite the wide range. My main point is that you can't use the quote as evidence for Snoke being Palpatine's peer. However, I don't think Snoke is on Sheev's level regardless due to what Dominis and Tempest have proffered so far.

Originally posted by Sheev
So you're saying what? That Luke was comparing Snoke's power to that of a random Sith that he'd never encountered?

Lol ok.....

Hes encountered Two Sith. Vader and Sheev.

He MIGHT also know something about Maul and Dooku from Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Even though yours and Galans interpretation is more likely the intended one, I do feel these quotes are intentionally made slightly ambiguous.

Originally posted by Azronger
There's no exact answer. Luke's only personal encounters with Sith include Vader and Palpatine, so that's quite the wide range. My main point is that you can't use the quote as evidence for Snoke being Palpatine's peer. However, I don't think Snoke is on Sheev's level regardless due to what Dominis and Tempest have proffered so far.
Except Luke didn't say "unlike Vader". He said "unlike Palpatine". The comparison seems clear, and only requires a basic comprehension of the english language as it pertains to contextual intent. 😛

Glad you agree with them, but I do not. Like I said before-

Originally posted by Sheev
It's simple.

Luke indicated that Snoke's power was equal to Sidious's. This should be referring to ROTJ Sidious, since that's the last time Luke had personally encountered and sensed him.

So Snoke = ROTJ Sidious in power.

Then Snoke himself later said that he respected and FEARED Luke. Snoke would not FEAR a being who was weaker then himself.

So ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.

Then when Kylo sensed the power of undead Sidious, he stated it was beyond anything he had ever encountered before.

So undead Sidious>ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.

These are the facts and they need to be accepted. 😄

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Hes encountered Two Sith. Vader and Sheev.

He MIGHT also know something about Maul and Dooku from Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Then he would have named THEM, instead of specifying "PALPATINE"

Originally posted by Sheev
Then he would have named THEM, instead of specifying "PALPATINE"

Not necessarily.

Palpatine was his predecessor (at that point before TROS retconned things and made Snoke another lackey). Which honestly just makes it less realistic that he was ever Palpatines equal IMO.