Originally posted by xPRIMExI agree that this option is equally valid.
Except your explanation is based on the assumption that Snoke had the proper genetic structure for Palpatine to transfer his essence into. Perhaps that’s the entire reason that Snoke was not a viable option, he was a “failed clone” after all.
But Tempest seems to think that he has provided us with the one and only logical explanation, so he'll probably just dismiss this idea like he did when Galan mentioned it.
Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Except your explanation is based on the assumption that Snoke had the proper genetic structure for Palpatine to transfer his essence into. Perhaps that’s the entire reason that Snoke was not a viable option, he was a “failed clone” after all.
This is a bad take.
First, the assumption that "a proper genetic structure" was required for Palpatine to transfer his essence into is just that: an assumption. We do not know if genetic continuity was a mandatory predicate for essence transfer; all we know is that genetic continuity was a vital component to create a "perfect" vessel for Sheev's spirit that could contain his essence permanently... which no one has suggested Snoke is, merely a viable interim host.
Second, even if that assumption were true (it's not), there is no evidence to suggest Snoke lacked the genetic continuity to serve as an interim host for Sheev since Snoke is factually a product of the same program that was intended to create Sheev's next vessel, as was Rey's father. But whereas Rey's father was created without Force aptitude and therefore only useful in continuing Sheev's bloodline through sexual reproduction, Snoke is a Force user of "impressive power," so he checks that box.
So the question becomes... why would Snoke, created deliberately as part of a program whose goal was to provide Sheev with a new meatsuit, not be employed as Sheev's vessel when Snoke is:
[list]
[*]a better physical specimen than Sheev's undead clone
[*] Force-strong, unlike Rey's father
[*] on hand
[*] in high number
[/list]
The best explanation: Snoke, despite being a better physical specimen and strong with the Force and despite existing in multiple inert copies on hand and despite being a product of a program specifically designed to create a viable specimen for Sidious to possess, is not strong enough to contain Sheev's essence.
Because the cloning process itself wasn't perfected. The cloners really had no clue what they were going to get- That's why Snoke came out looking the way he did.
So just because Snoke was powerful with the force and Rey's father (an otherwise perfect clone) was not, doesn't mean that Snoke had a proper genetic structure for Palpatine to transfer his essence into. He was still a failed clone.
What xPRIMEx is saying here makes sense.
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Because the cloning process itself wasn't perfected. The cloners really had no clue what they were going to get- That's why Snoke came out looking the way he did.So just because Snoke was powerful with the force and Rey's father (an otherwise perfect clone) was not, doesn't mean that Snoke had a proper genetic structure for Palpatine to transfer his essence into. He was a failed clone.
What xPRIMEx is saying here makes sense.
Snoke was deemed a "failure(?)" because he wasn't a perfect vessel for Sidious's consciousness. Nobody disputes that or has suggested otherwise. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been a viable interim host, just like Sheev's current, rotting clone body.
Your argument is that because Snoke wasn't a perfect vessel for Sheev, he must therefore not have been suitable even as a temporary host due to unproven and unsubstantiated genetic complications... for which there is no evidence.
Well no. I personally think the most likely option is that ROS Sidious was more powerful then ROTJ Sidious to begin with, which is why Snoke couldn't be used as a vessel.
What I'm saying is that xPRIMEx's argument that Snoke did not have a proper genetic structure for Palpatine to transfer his essence into in the first place makes sense. Snoke was a heavily mutated abomination when he was first created, because the cloners didn't seem to have any real idea how to make what they needed to make- he was just a byproduct of their trial and error. Who's to say that a creature like Snoke could even be used as a vessel at all? Maybe thats why he was deemed a failure?
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Well no. I personally think the most likely option is that ROS Sidious was more powerful then ROTJ Sidious to begin with, which is why Snoke couldn't be used as a vessel.
That's a fair take and one that aligns with my argument, so I don't have an issue with it.
What I'm saying is that xPRIMEx's argument that Snoke did not have a proper genetic structure for Palpatine to transfer his essence into in the first place makes sense.
It doesn't.
Nowhere in the movie, the novelizations, or in the lore given by the website and reference guides like The Star Wars book and TROS Visual Dictionary is it suggested that "a proper genetic structure" is necessary for Sidious to attempt an essence transfer in the first place.
Right off the bat, this argument requires an unproven premise.
But even if that premise were proven and genetic continuity is required for Sheev to attempt essence transfer into a host, even temporarily, what evidence do we have that Snoke lacks sufficient genetic compatibility when he was the product of a program specifically designed to create genetically-compatible perfect hosts for Sheev?
Snoke was a heavily mutated abomination when he was first created, because the cloners didn't seem to have any real idea how to make what they needed to make- he was just a byproduct of their trial and error. Who's to say that a creature like Snoke could even be used as a vessel at all? Maybe thats why he was deemed a failure?
What about Snoke suggests that he couldn't be a vessel? He's Force-strong. He's infirm but physically functional. He was bred for that specific purpose.
Are you suggesting the fact that Snoke is tall or ugly or humanoid but not human somehow magically disqualifies him for possession by Sheev, a dark side spirit currently occupying a literal corpse?
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Well no. I personally think the most likely option is that ROS Sidious was more powerful then ROTJ Sidious to begin with, which is why Snoke couldn't be used as a vessel.What I'm saying is that xPRIMEx's argument that Snoke did not have a proper genetic structure for Palpatine to transfer his essence into in the first place makes sense. Snoke was a heavily mutated abomination when he was first created, because the cloners didn't seem to have any real idea how to make what they needed to make- he was just a byproduct of their trial and error. Who's to say that a creature like Snoke could even be used as a vessel at all? Maybe thats why he was deemed a failure?
Out of curiosity, why do you think Palpatine grew much more powerful between ROTJ and the time he created Snoke, which was implied to be not long after he died in ROTJ?
Is it to align with a quote that may have been misinterpreted like DP said?
Kylo said that undead Palpatine’s power was far greater than anyone he had encountered before. He also had the power of all the sith, which is not something he had before.
Another interesting thing is that his Galaxy of Heroes description says he’s more powerful than ever before. Although that’s not canon.
Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Kylo said that undead Palpatine’s power was far greater than anyone he had encountered before.Also this isn’t canon, but his Galaxy of Heroes description says he’s more powerful than ever before.
Kylo had never encountered ROTJ Sheev, so could you explain why him sensing TROS Sheev is more powerful than anyone he's experienced before automatically means Sheev is more powerful than an iteration of Sheev Kylo has never encountered?
Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Kylo said that undead Palpatine’s power was far greater than anyone he had encountered before. He also had the power of all the sith, which is not something he had before.Another interesting thing is that his Galaxy of Heroes description says he’s more powerful than ever before. Although that’s not canon.
Palpatine inhabits a clone vessel and right away it's barely enough to hold the power he held in his original body, so he adds thousands of more sith worth of power to it?
Yeah, good point. I just find it hard to believe that Sidious had the power of all the sith before. If that was the case, how were Yoda and Mace even able to compete? Sidious should be far more powerful than any other force user, which is how he is portrayed in ROS.
Also, it’s possible that Snoke was never even intended to be a vessel for Palpatine’s consciousness. Now that I think about it, it seems like he was only created for the sole purpose of being Palpatine’s puppet, since the Emperor was limited in his ability to travel and move around.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Wait, where the hell did Luke say that? ermm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And Galan is referring to this, fyi:
^ Lukes journal.
