Originally posted by Galan007
However, if GS can prove(or already has proven) that Dark Phoenix can indeed logically preform the same level/caliber of feats as, say, her WPOTC counterpart, then it should be admissible.
Originally posted by GalacticStormFurthermore Marvel confirmed via official publication that Dark Phoenix in fact had full access to the Phoenix Force:
I quote: "She realised that the dark side of her personality [B]with the full power of the Phoenix Force behind it
was taking over"🙄
[/B]
The moderator has spoken. cheers
WEEP! crybaby
Then fall in line. surrender
gun_bandana diva rip
😆
Originally posted by h1a8
We go by feats.
Use must use DP feats.
Any Phoenix that occurred after, having learned or gained abilities through special circumstances doesn't count. Plus we go by character. Propensity to do something is proven by showings.
We do indeed go by feats, however what doesnt appear to be computing with you is that Dark Phoenix isnt a separate character, with a separate powerset. Its basically just a ruthless, bloodlusted Jean Phoenix. Furthermore Dark Phoenix isnt a reference for Jean only in issues 135 to 137 of UXM. Those are just the issues where she debuted. Dark Phoenix is a reference for her reaching that uninhibited, bloodlusted state.
With that in mind, unless a thread maker handicaps the character by saying in the thread they want to limit the abilities of the character to the levels shown only in the aforementioned issues, then all Jean Phoenix feats count as they're the same character and Marvel has officially confirmed they operate at the same power levels.
So we would take her canon Phoenix powerset and discuss it with the demonstrated propensity of the Dark Phoenix.
The moderator has made a ruling on the matter, so this point is no longer up for debate. 😬
If you wish to debate within this thread, then fall in line with said ruling 👆
Originally posted by Juntai
Superman Prime didn’t just lose to the 7 deadly sins. UnKindness Raven was there amping them, she also designed it as a sneak attack.
UnKindness Raven was becoming more powerful than the Presence/Overvoid and still had to sneak attack blitz Superman. Then had the goal of finishing the job before he could recover. lol.
And the Unkindness were omniverse enders. I assumed Superman Prime was jobbed out to make Teth look good when he beat them back, but was wrong, Teth could not beat them. No one could.
I still say Supernan One Million never should have been brought out just to job though. Has the DC One Million cast EVER looked good after the DC One Million run?
Originally posted by ODG
^ It's not like Galacticstorm couldn't just make a thread called Raven vs Dark Phoenix (w/ all Phoenix feats).No.
He has to sh1t the bed of this thread with inane conflations whilst hypocritically accusing others of that very same thing.
Oooo. This didnt age well did it? cry
Absolute clown
Originally posted by cdtmHave any of them really been used outside of Hourman having a series, and Supes appearing in All Star for a second?
And the Unkindness were omniverse enders. I assumed Superman Prime was jobbed out to make Teth look good when he beat them back, but was wrong, Teth could not beat them. No one could.I still say Supernan One Million never should have been brought out just to job though. Has the DC One Million cast EVER looked good after the DC One Million run?
One interesting thing, is that during the conversation people were having with the author on Twitter about her ability to beat everyone and absorb everything thrown at her. One question was asked, could she beat Mandrakk and the Overvoid, and Jeremy Adams response was, "conceptually she destroys and absorbs everything, so if she got to the Overvoid at the point she was at, possibly. I mean, she did take down Superman One Million." To me, it speaks volumes of how high they rank him. Like, can she beat everyone? Well, she did take down Superman, so yeah.
Originally posted by JuntaiI've never read this story, I will have to at some point.
Have any of them really been used outside of Hourman having a series, and Supes appearing in All Star for a second?One interesting thing, is that during the conversation people were having with the author on Twitter about her ability to beat everyone and absorb everything thrown at her. One question was asked, could she beat Mandrakk and the Overvoid, and Jeremy Adams response was, "conceptually she destroys and absorbs everything, so if she got to the Overvoid at the point she was at, possibly. I mean, she did take down Superman One Million." To me, it speaks volumes of how high they rank him. Like, can she beat everyone? Well, she did take down Superman, so yeah.
Originally posted by Juntai
Have any of them really been used outside of Hourman having a series, and Supes appearing in All Star for a second?One interesting thing, is that during the conversation people were having with the author on Twitter about her ability to beat everyone and absorb everything thrown at her. One question was asked, could she beat Mandrakk and the Overvoid, and Jeremy Adams response was, "conceptually she destroys and absorbs everything, so if she got to the Overvoid at the point she was at, possibly. I mean, she did take down Superman One Million." To me, it speaks volumes of how high they rank him. Like, can she beat everyone? Well, she did take down Superman, so yeah.
Truth be told, the Unkindness was probably conceived to be as uber as youre asserting she is. The problem is that nothing conclusive actually made it to print to cement it as canonical fact.
All we got on panel were inconclusive feats that were off panel and with the aid of the Lords of Chaos.
A writers thoughts after the fact dont really mean a thing. They just speak for unfulfilled promise. 😬
Originally posted by GalacticStormAlso, Unkindness is just Raven when she lets go of her humanity. She starts destroying and devouring any and all power. She can do it at any time she chooses. In Future State, she just got a head start because she had already absorbed the biblical Four Horsemen.
Truth be told, the Unkindness was probably conceived to be as uber as youre asserting she is. The problem is that nothing conclusive actually made it to print to cement it as canonical fact.All we got on panel were inconclusive feats that were off panel and with the aid of the Lords of Chaos.
A writers thoughts after the fact dont really mean a thing. They just speak for unfulfilled promise. 😬
But even without tapping into Unkindness, we see recently that regular Raven just walked into Hell and overpowered Neron. Beat a reality conquering demon from another dimension. And also battled Spectre down until Jim Corrigan could re-merge with him. This is just recent stuff.
She also in her past has several multiverse feats and great showings and wins against high level characters.
Meanwhile, as for Jean Grey, well in the span of this thread she died yet again.
She's probably closing on 20 deaths, most of which she had the power of Phoenix.
So the character in Future State had absorbed the omniverse at the end, while Phoenix users mostly are just equipped with an arsenal of losses and deaths.
Phoenix doesn't even have a winning record against a character like Galactus in half a dozen confrontations. On a couple occasions he just casually bodybags her and starts absorbing her.
And you're here trying to debate her against someone who conquered and absorbed the entire power of the omniverse at the end of the story, regardless of the path to get there. At the end, she's far more powerful than anything we've seen from Phoenix, and even all the flowery prose of her purpose and position.
People aren't popping in and out of the thread because they're defeated in any way at all, but because the whole thing is pretty stupid really.
Originally posted by Juntai
Also, Unkindness is just Raven when she lets go of her humanity. She starts destroying and devouring any and all power. She can do it at any time she chooses. In Future State, she just got a head start because she had already absorbed the biblical Four Horsemen.But even without tapping into Unkindness, we see recently that regular Raven just walked into Hell and overpowered Neron. Beat a reality conquering demon from another dimension. And also battled Spectre down until Jim Corrigan could re-merge with him. This is just recent stuff.
She also in her past has several multiverse feats and great showings and wins against high level characters.Meanwhile, as for Jean Grey, well in the span of this thread she died yet again.
She's probably closing on 20 deaths, most of which she had the power of Phoenix.
So the character in Future State had absorbed the omniverse at the end, while Phoenix users mostly are just equipped with an arsenal of losses and deaths.
Phoenix doesn't even have a winning record against a character like Galactus in half a dozen confrontations. On a couple occasions he just casually bodybags her and starts absorbing her.
And you're here trying to debate her against someone who conquered and absorbed the entire power of the omniverse at the end of the story, regardless of the path to get there. At the end, she's far more powerful than anything we've seen from Phoenix, and even all the flowery prose of her purpose and position.
People aren't popping in and out of the thread because they're defeated in any way at all, but because the whole thing is pretty stupid really.
The Unkindness was a title Raven went by following her absorption of the Four Horsemen and Neron channelling the power of Shazam to her. It was not normal Raven in any way shape or form. That is not debatable.
Within Future State she has absolutely zero solo feats of note besides defeating the Wizard. Everything else was with the aid of the Lords of Chaos and happened off panel.
We are not gonna rehash the same discourse.
In terms of conclusive solo feats, Phoenix has Unkindness beat by a wide margin. Phoenix faced and overcame multiversal power en masse, (unlike Unkindness' gradual build up to that level at a leisurely pace, tackling dimensions within a universe at a time) and has entire realities in her palm as if theyre nothing, dispatching them with a thought. Unkindness with the aid of the LOC went from dimension to dimension selectively absorbing parts of single dimensions over time before she had absorbed most of DC reality. If she had absorbed a multiverse en masse at once then that would be level pegging.
As i said previously, the intention likely was for Unkindness to be uber, but the presentation we got on panel, the things that actual made it to print as canonical fact do not give her said status within this versus forum and thats unfortunate. 😬
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
We do indeed go by feats, however what doesnt appear to be computing with you is that Dark Phoenix isnt a separate character, with a separate powerset. Its basically just a ruthless, bloodlusted Jean Phoenix. Furthermore Dark Phoenix isnt a reference for Jean only in issues 135 to 137 of UXM. Those are just the issues where she debuted. Dark Phoenix is a reference for her reaching that uninhibited, bloodlusted state.With that in mind, unless a thread maker handicaps the character by saying in the thread they want to limit the abilities of the character to the levels shown only in the aforementioned issues, then all Jean Phoenix feats count as they're the same character and Marvel has officially confirmed they operate at the same power levels.
So we would take her canon Phoenix powerset and discuss it with the demonstrated propensity of the Dark Phoenix.
The moderator has made a ruling on the matter, so this point is no longer up for debate. 😬
If you wish to debate within this thread, then fall in line with said ruling 👆
WC Phoenix is from 150 years into the future (alternate future characters are not allowed anyway) that arose under special circumstances. Saitama who fought God Garou is not the same as standard Saitama. Saitama had special circumstances that allowed him to operate at a higher level. If you read the storyline then you know all the things Jean had to go through just to become that state (mentally and physically).
You completely ignored what I said.
There was special circumstances when Jean became White Crown Phoenix.
She gained knowledge and ability that she didn't have as DP.
I can have the POTENTIAL to use TK in real life, but if I don't know how to access that potential or go through special circumstances that lend me that extra power then I'm not able to use such abilities in a fight.
Every showing by DP contradicts your argument. DP displayed limits to her power and durability many times over.
Originally posted by h1a8
There was no mod ruling on DP doing what WC Phoenix WOULD and CAN do in a forum fight. If either ability or propensity is questionable then it destroys your entire argument.WC Phoenix is from 150 years into the future (alternate future characters are not allowed anyway) that arose under special circumstances. Saitama who fought God Garou is not the same as standard Saitama. Saitama had special circumstances that allowed him to operate at a higher level. If you read the storyline then you know all the things Jean had to go through just to become that state (mentally and physically).
You completely ignored what I said.
There was special circumstances when Jean became White Crown Phoenix.
She gained knowledge and ability that she didn't have as DP.
I can have the POTENTIAL to use TK in real life, but if I don't know how to access that potential or go through special circumstances that lend me that extra power then I'm not able to use such abilities in a fight.
I didnt overlook your previous point at all, you just didnt articuate it well.
In this reply youve put in more effort and made yourself clear.
We have however been through this previously.
Jean Grey in Endsong referenced Here Comes Tomorrow as a future she didnt want to experience again and proceeded to refer to events of Here Comes Tomorrow thus confirming that they were one and the same individual.
So again i repeat, all power levels/abilities demonstrated by Jean Phoenix are admissible in a Dark Phoenix discussion as per the moderator's rulings.
We just consider the Dark Phoenix propensity when discussing likely attack strategies.
Its that simple. 😬
Good try though. That was more inventive than the others, so hats off to you 🤘
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I didnt overlook your previous point at all, you just didnt articuate it well.In this reply youve put in more effort and made yourself clear.
We have however been through this previously.
Jean Grey in Endsong referenced Here Comes Tomorrow as a future she didnt want to experience again and proceeded to refer to events of Here Comes Tomorrow thus confirming that they were one and the same individual.
So again i repeat, all power levels/abilities demonstrated by Jean Phoenix are admissible in a Dark Phoenix discussion as per the moderators rulings.
We just consider the Dark Phoenix propensity when discussing likely attack strategies.
Its that simple. 😬
Good try though. That was more inventive than the others, so hats off to you 🤘
It took many steps for Jean to reach the mental state AND ability of WC Phoenix.
Your argument for endsong Jean has no bearing on DP. Nor does your conclusion follow for endsong Jean either (a different argument).
DP displayed limits IN EVERY SHOWING and thus contradicting your entire argument.
Basically, your argument boils down to character A (with specific mindset and ability) failing to lift 10 tons in EVERY SHOWING. But in a future version where they went through many steps to become character B in which the can lift trillions of tons. Therefore, in a forum, character A can lift trillions of tons without having gone through all the steps their future self went through and also contradicting all their showings of them trying and failing to lift 10 tons.
Remember my Saitama analogy?
What the Neo analogy (Matrix)? Neo before he became the one (through special circumstances) is not the same as Neo when he first awaken out of the matrix and wasn't even able to jump buildings lol.
Originally posted by h1a8
Lol You are still ignoring what I said. You are trolling at this point. I'm referring to DP, not endsong Jean (which I can still srgue against you there as well).It took many steps for Jean to reach the mental state AND ability of WC Phoenix.
Your argument for endsong Jean has no bearing on DP.
DP displayed limits IN EVERY SHOWING and thus contradicting your entire argument.Basically, your argument boils down to character A (with specific mindset and ability) failing to lift 10 tons in EVERY SHOWING. But in a future version where they went through many steps to become character B in which the can lift trillions of tons. Therefore in a forum character A can lift trillions of tons without having gone through all the steps and also contradicting all their showings of them trying and failing to lift 10 tons.
Im not ignoring what youre saying at all. You seem to have overlooked or failed to comprehend both my posts and Galan's.
Dark Phoenix is just the reference to Jean Grey in her uninhibited bloodlusted state. It is not exclusively her appearance in UXM 135 and 137.
So unless a thread maker handicaps the character by stating Dark Phoenix only as she appears in those aforementioned issues, then all Jeans Phoenix feats feats she has performed are admissible. That was the ruling.
Im gonna need you to read and digest this post before replying again ✅
This point is not debatable. 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im not ignoring what youre saying at all. You seem to have overlooked or failed to comprehend both my posts and Galan's.Dark Phoenix is just the reference to Jean Grey in her uninhibited bloodlusted state. It is not exclusively her appearance in UXM 135 and 137.
So unless a thread maker handicaps the character by stating Dark Phoenix only as she appears in those aforementioned issues, then all Jeans Phoenix feats feats she has performed are admissible. That was the ruling.
Im gonna need you to read and digest this post before replying again ✅
This point is not debatable. 🙂
You are not addressing my arguments at all you are only restating conclusions (without premises). Again, DP was bloodlusted but showed limit to her power in every showing. DP never went through the necessary steps to become WC Phoenix.
That's like arguing that a bloodlusted Saitama is equal to Saitama when he fought God Garou. Being bloodlusted doesn't make your conclusion follow.
Again,there was no mod ruling that DP CAN AND WILL operate in a forum fight as WC Phoenix would.
Trying and Failing to lift 10 tons in every showing while bloodlusted is somehow ignored when a future version that went through many steps to achieve greater power (through knowledge and other special circumstances) lifted a trillion tons. Lmao
Originally posted by GalacticStormAt the end of the story, she'd absorbed the omniverse. Are you trying to use her at the beginning of the story? 😕
The Unkindness was a title Raven went by following her absorption of the Four Horsemen and Neron channelling the power of Shazam to her. It was not normal Raven in any way shape or form. That is not debatable.Within Future State she has absolutely zero solo feats of note besides defeating the Wizard. Everything else was with the aid of the Lords of Chaos and happened off panel.
We are not gonna rehash the same discourse.
In terms of conclusive solo feats, Phoenix has Unkindness beat by a wide margin. Phoenix faced and overcame multiversal power en masse, (unlike Unkindness' gradual build up to that level at a leisurely pace, tackling dimensions within a universe at a time) and has entire realities in her palm as if theyre nothing, dispatching them with a thought. Unkindness with the aid of the LOC went from dimension to dimension selectively absorbing parts of single dimensions over time before she had absorbed most of DC reality. If she had absorbed a multiverse en masse at once then that would be level pegging.
As i said previously, the intention likely was for Unkindness to be uber, but the presentation we got on panel, the things that actual made it to print as canonical fact do not give her said status within this versus forum and thats unfortunate. 😬
You're still worried about the beginning of the process, and not who she was at the end.
She was the end of everything.
And yes, she can become Unkindness any time, its just not in her character, her character is about keeping the darkness at bay. She was just got a jumpstart from already having the Horsemen and then getting Shazams power, though Shazams death was mostly about getting her free from the Rock of Eternity where she was placed after collapsing when she absorbed the horsemen.
Not debatable that she can? lol.
Debate it with two different writers.