Raven vs Dark Phoenix

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
the various forms of hulk are also a state of mind for him. but if a thread op says "savage hulk", we don't assume he's going to be hopping into his "wbh" powerlevels for example. we use feats from that ONE specific version of hulk, and don't scale him up based on the feats of his other more powerful versions.

same is true for dark phoenix. that title represents ONE version of phoenix. so only the feats preformed by that ONE version should be usable in this thread.

Completely different circumstance. One thats been discussed in depth in this very thread.

Hulks various mindsets arent simply a change of propensity, they bring about a change in physicality and ability meaning they have to be debated separately. That isnt the case here. Nowhere has it been stated on panel that there is a difference in ability or power level between the Phoenix colours. The only difference is temperament and priorities.

Dark Phoenix is a term used to describe a Phoenix host when theyve embraced their dark side. Jean has been Dark Phoenix in New X-men and Endsong for example. So within this ambiguity left by the thread maker, ive taken the logical approach of discussing an outcome for Dark Phoenix as presented in Uncanny X-men 135 to 137 and for Dark Phoenix in general.

no different at all.

if a thread op says "savage hulk" we only discuss feats preformed by that specific version of hulk. likewise if a thread says "dark phoenix" we should only discuss feats preformed by that specific version of phoenix.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
no different at all.

if a thread op says "savage hulk" we only discuss feats preformed by that specific version of hulk. likewise if a thread says "dark phoenix" we should only discuss feats preformed by that specific version of phoenix.

Entirely different. Each version of Hulk by canon has a different personality, physicality and ability

Each Phoenix colour is the same Jean, with the same abilities just with a different temperament.

In Endsong Jean cycled through green, red and white Phoenix colours across a few pages as she embraced different emotions. Nowehere has it been stated the different colours give different abilities, only that its an issue of temperament and priorities. Beyond that its the very same character with the very same abilities. So feats performed by Jean Phoenix can be referenced by any Jean Phoenix until such times as an official source makes a distinction in ability between the colours.

If a threadmaker wishes to only talk of her most famous appearance in UXM 135 to 137 then thats a parameter to set.

in theory savage hulk can just be chilling at his baseline, but if his "temperament" changes enough, he can cycle up to wbh levels. but that isn't how it works in versus matches- if a thread op specifies savage hulk then we only use savage hulk's showings. if a thread specifies dark phoenix then we only use dark phoenix's showings.

it's a very simple logic, but an effective and fair one. when it comes to characters with different mindsets (and powerlevels based on those mindsets), we don't share feats.

^ I believe GS is arguing that each iteration of Jean-Phoenix is able to utilize the exact same level of power. IOW, their mindsets may be fundamentally different, but in essence, Dark Phoenix can operate on the same level as any other one of her [seemingly more powerful] counterparts. I think that is why he is arguing that the Hulk(s) analogy doesn't hold up -- because your standard Savage Hulk does not operate on the level of his WBH counterpart.

That said: generally speaking, I do agree that if a thread starter notes a specific version of a character in their OP, then only that one version(and their associated feats) should be used... However, if GS can prove(or already has proven) that Dark Phoenix can indeed logically preform the same level/caliber of feats as, say, her WPOTC counterpart, then it should be admissible.

...But I don't really know enough about the inner-workings of Jean-Phoenix to say one way or the other. That was just my observation of the latest dialogue. /shrug

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
in theory savage hulk can just be chilling at his baseline, but if his "temperament" changes enough, he can cycle up to wbh levels. but that isn't how it works in versus matches- if a thread op specifies savage hulk then we only use savage hulk's showings. if a thread specifies dark phoenix then we only use dark phoenix's showings.

it's a very simple logic, but an effective and fair one. when it comes to characters with different mindsets (and powerlevels based on those mindsets), we don't share feats.

The distinction between Hulks isnt just one of temperament, they have an entirely different personality that takes the driving seat and are in effect distinct characters which in turn manifests itself as a physically different Hulk, with a different intelligence level and different abilities

If the only difference between Hulks was a matter of temperament and they shared the same everything else, then the feats performed by one Hulk would apply to all Hulks. The only thing that would change with temperament is propensity. So we would then look at whats in character for a particular Hulk to do out of their demonstrated power set.

Dark Phoenix is just the name for any Phoenix host that embraces its dark side. Theres zero canon difference in ability stated. Dark Phoenix Jean does not automatically mean Jean in UXM 135 to 137. She has been Dark Phoenix beyond that initial appearance which is a key point youre overlooking.

Another point youre overlooking is the fact that i presented my thoughts on Dark Phoenix in that classic appearance as well as Dark Phoenix in general. The former shouldve been enough to address your concerns.

Without the thread setting the parameters youre asserting i should be going by, i am free to discuss Dark Phoenix beyond that initial appearance. Which ive done whilst covering that classic appearance for the sake of objectivity.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I believe GS is arguing that each iteration of Jean-Phoenix is able to utilize the exact same level of power. IOW, their mindsets may be fundamentally different, but in essence, Dark Phoenix can operate on the same level as any other one of her [seemingly more powerful] counterparts. I think that is why he is arguing that the Hulk(s) analogy doesn't hold up -- because your standard Savage Hulk does not operate on the level of his WBH counterpart.

That said: generally speaking, I do agree that if a thread starter notes a specific version of a character in their OP, then only that one version(and their associated feats) should be used... However, if GS can prove(or already has proven) that Dark Phoenix can indeed logically preform the same level/caliber of feats as, say, her WPOTC counterpart, then it should be admissible.

...But I don't really know enough about the inner-workings of Jean-Phoenix to say one way or the other. That was just my observation of the latest dialogue. /shrug

Exactly this. 👆

There has been no canon statement whether on panel or in the handbook to state that there is a difference in power level.

What a change in temperament could affect is propensity to do certain things.

So as a Dark Phoenix would Jean heal universes and re-energise multiversal power sources? No.

But she has the demonstrated ability to access such power levels so we would talk about how the Dark Phoenix mindset would dictate how she would employ those powers for destructive purposes instead.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Entirely different. Each version of Hulk by canon has a different personality, physicality and ability

Each Phoenix colour is the same Jean, with the same abilities just with a different temperament.

In Endsong Jean cycled through green, red and white Phoenix colours across a few pages as she embraced different emotions. Nowehere has it been stated the different colours give different abilities, only that its an issue of temperament and priorities. Beyond that its the very same character with the very same abilities. So feats performed by Jean Phoenix can be referenced by any Jean Phoenix until such times as an official source makes a distinction in ability between the colours.

If a threadmaker wishes to only talk of her most famous appearance in UXM 135 to 137 then thats a parameter to set.

Also assuming DP had the equal power and know how as WC then her personality never allowed her to tap into that potential. She went around doing trans things etc having trans level or less durability etc.

Also, your interpretation is off about Endsong Jean. What do colors have to do with anything? Changing ones colors doesn't mean anything.
You constantly use bad logic. You state a premise and force your conclusion to follow. But your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow. It's almost like you are a con artist.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
the various forms of hulk are also a state of mind for him. but if a thread op says "savage hulk", we don't assume he's going to be hopping into his "wbh" powerlevels for example. we use feats from that ONE specific version of hulk, and don't scale him up based on the feats of his other more powerful versions.

same is true for dark phoenix. that title represents ONE version of phoenix. so only the feats preformed by that ONE version should be usable in this thread.

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree.

No surprises there. 😉

Originally posted by h1a8
Dark Phoenix displayed no equal ability as WC Phoenix. You can argue that later versions (WC Phoenix) of learned to access more.

Dark Phoenix as shown 40 years ago in UXM 135 to 137 showed lower level feats than the same character decades later. With power creep being a thing are you really surprised? Doesnt change the fact that nowhere in canon does it state that the different Phoenix colours have different abilities. All thats ever stated is they are different sides of the same being.

If and when that official verification comes then we can start distinguishing them in terms of powerset. Ahead of that, all that's different is propensity which would mean in battle DP is likely to opt for more destructive and ruthless tactics.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also assuming DP had the equal power and know how as WC then her personality never allowed her to tap into that potential. She went around doing trans things etc having trans level or less durability etc.

Which would be highly relevant if the opening post set the parameters of Dark Phoenix only in her UXM 135 to 137 appearance. It did not.

Back in 1980 feats were at a lower scale. A supernova attack was the limit of LTs power and eating stars was enough for Marvel to state Phoenix was 2nd only to TOAA.

So its clear DP at the time was considered top tier. However feats have now moved on with writers escalating things and raising the bar, so a DP limited to its 1st appearance doesn't get to move with the times and benefit from decades of power creep, that saw that supernova attack LT develop to become a multiversal power by the 90s. So if we were to implement a handicap by just looking at Dark Phoenix in the narrow parameters of UXM 135 to 137 there are tons of characters who could be argued to look more impressive by taking their modern forms where characters are now written to a different scope and comparing them to a 40yr old appearance. Its the same as comparing the cost of something 40 years ago and just using that surface numerical value as a point of comparison with a modern equivalent item without accounting for inflation to give us the real value of the original item.

However the parameters of this thread didnt state DP UXM 135 to 137. It just stated Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix. Which means until there is official confirmation of a difference between the Phoenixes other than mindset and propensity, demonstrated power level is applicable to all Phoenixes. Its how they'd use their power that would differ.

The Phoenix Force is by canon a force of duality. It embodies dark and light, life and death, creation and destruction. When a host is teetered towards hope and compassion on their emotional spectrum they are the Green Phoenix, Dark Phoenix is a host embracing their dark, destructive side, whilst the White Phoenix is where everything is in balance.

So Dark Phoenix outside of the aforementioned parameters would benefit from the power levels we have seen Jean accomplish by modern times. However we would consider the different propensity of the DP mindset in using those abilities.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, your interpretation is off about Endsong Jean. What do colors have to do with anything? Changing ones colors doesn't mean anything.
You constantly use bad logic. You state a premise and force your conclusion to follow. But your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow.

Explained above. It is canon that the Phoenix hosts appearance reflects their mindset. We saw in Endsong as Jean cycled through different emotional states, her Phoenix colours changed correspondingly. I dont force any conclusion, i share comic scenes, my observations and thoughts as well as happily sharing corroborating evidence. Whether you agree or disagree with my stances theres always logic in them and evidence for them in canon. The same cant always be said about my opposition.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's almost like you are a con artist.

Must every debate we now have descend into insults? Wipe the slate clean when we enter a new discussion. We are not children. I never start any animosity but i will very quickly react to it. It ruins threads. Let it go for the sake of other debaters. Bygones be bygones.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I believe GS is arguing that each iteration of Jean-Phoenix is able to utilize the exact same level of power. IOW, their mindsets may be fundamentally different, but in essence, Dark Phoenix can operate on the same level as any other one of her [seemingly more powerful] counterparts. I think that is why he is arguing that the Hulk(s) analogy doesn't hold up -- because your standard Savage Hulk does not operate on the level of his WBH counterpart.

That said: generally speaking, I do agree that if a thread starter notes a specific version of a character in their OP, then only that one version(and their associated feats) should be used... However, if GS can prove(or already has proven) that Dark Phoenix can indeed logically preform the same level/caliber of feats as, say, her WPOTC counterpart, then it should be admissible.

...But I don't really know enough about the inner-workings of Jean-Phoenix to say one way or the other. That was just my observation of the latest dialogue. /shrug

It doesn't hold up on analysis of either the normal forum rules, or Jean's entire history, but that sure is what he's arguing.

I did say that I would get back to you though, so...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

There are many ways to spell it, from Kabalah, to Kaballah, to Kabballah to Qabalah to Cabala and many more:

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=kabbalah

If you are going to attempt to critique and talk on matters of credibility, get your shit together and do your research. Dont take the 1st spelling you see off page 1 of a Google search and then act as if youre an authority. laugh:

1) that's a list of 10 different spellings and yet you still get it wrong
2) my credibility isn't in issue because... I wasn't the one who started some strange and disconnected filibuster about Kabbalah? in lieu of an actual argument?

It's weird that you arbitrarily lecture about a topic that you can't spell, but the arbitrary lecture is also, on its own, pretty weird.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The eye roll would be because you asserted that the top feats performed by a Phoenix host were only ever done in White Phoenix form. I highlighted that actually a hosts greatest feat was arguably containing the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal. The fact that you were unable to follow the flow of the argument perhaps highlights the limits of your mental faculties. You just might be out of your depth Smurph. 😬

"The fact that you were unable to follow the flow of the argument perhaps highlights the limits of your mental faculties"

------

But look, the above pettiness aside, I think we have some common ground here.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What a White Phoenix is has NEVER been defined, so your supposition and conjecture can not be pushed as the truth. You can simply make a case for your interpretation and explain why you believe it to be the case and whether people accept it or not, you deal with that outcome. Drop the arrogance.

Specifically with this part:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What a White Phoenix is has NEVER been defined, so your supposition and conjecture can not be pushed as the truth. You can simply make a case for your interpretation and explain why you believe it to be the case and whether people accept it or not, you deal with that outcome.

Do you see it yet?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What a White Phoenix is has NEVER been defined, so your supposition and conjecture can not be pushed as the truth.

Computer, enhance:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
so your supposition and conjecture can not be pushed as the truth.

So.

Phoenix colours have never been defined. What we have are theories.

Your supposition and conjecture *ahem* cannot be pushed as the truth.

I am so glad we agree, friend.

So...what's Dark Phoenix Jean's greatest feat?

Please don't say anything about Kabbalah.

^ It's not like Galacticstorm couldn't just make a thread called Raven vs Dark Phoenix (w/ all Phoenix feats).

No.

He has to sh1t the bed of this thread with inane conflations whilst hypocritically accusing others of that very same thing.

Originally posted by Smurph
That's what he's arguing, yes.

It doesn't hold up on analysis of either the normal forum rules, or Jean's entire history, but that sure is what he's arguing.

Out here talking about a contradiction with Jeans entire history yet you have failed to provide a single scrap of conclusive evidence to date. 😬

As per forum rules the most current incarnation of the character is to be used unless specified in the opening post of the thread maker. Continuity demonstrates that the Phoenix colours are just a reflection of the hosts emotional state.

There has been zero on panel or official statement related to a difference between the Phoenix states other than mindset. Thus all that differs between them is propensity. Not power set.

Until such times as you provide conclusive evidence to the contrary......Green Phoenix = Red Phoenix = White Phoenix in power set.

Their different emotional states however would dictate different strategies would be used by them in battle.

With that in mind, any Jean Dark Phoenix thread that doesnt specify her classic appearance in UXM 135 to 137 can reference the power set Jean has displayed as a Phoenix, whilst debating with her Dark Phoenix propensity in mind. ✅

After weeks of respite, this was your comeback?

You continue to rate yourself so highly and yet inevitably disappoint.

Lets begin...

Originally posted by Smurph
I did say that I would get back to you though, so...

lol

1) that's a list of 10 different spellings and yet you still get it wrong
2) my credibility isn't in issue because... I wasn't the one who started some strange and disconnected filibuster about Kabbalah? in lieu of an actual argument?

It's weird that you arbitrarily lecture about a topic that you can't spell, but the arbitrary lecture is also, on its own, pretty weird.

Typing Kaballah here in preparation to send a forum message or into an MS Word document results in the word being highlighted as erroneous. If you then accept the proposed correction, guess what your spellings substituted with? 😖hifty:

Thats right girl, "Kabballah." 😱

The monumental hypocrisy in dismissing my exploration of the abundant Kaballah references in various Phoenix stories and Ewing's Marvel work in general as just a substitute for an argument, when youre out here focusing on MS Word spelling proposals whilst providing zero conclusive evidence or counters of note.

Throw yourself in the garbage you joke 😆

Originally posted by Smurph
Oh, GS, my point was that you emphasized the green colour of her outfit as a way to highlight the disparity in power between outfit colour and feat magnitude.

"The fact that you were unable to follow the flow of the argument perhaps highlights the limits of your mental faculties"

Oh Harley Quinn, no, just no. jester

You made the false claim that Jeans greatest feats were only done in White Phoenix mode as a means to assert that such a level of power was only ever accessible in that state thereby highlighting your officially unverified theory that the different colours possess different abilities/power levels.

I then highlighted that actually, her greatest feat was performed as Green Phoenix when she re-energised the M'kraan crystal, thus rubbishing your initial claim. So lets not try and rewrite history. Take your L own it 🙂

Originally posted by Smurph
But look, the above pettiness aside, I think we have some common ground here.

Are you capable of not bringing petty to the table? Even after typing this comment you still continued to give sass in all its various forms right to the very end diva LOL

Originally posted by Smurph
I agree.

Specifically with this part:

Do you see it yet?

Computer, enhance:

So.

Phoenix colours have never been defined. What we have are theories.

Your supposition and conjecture *ahem* [b]cannot be pushed as the truth.

I am so glad we agree, friend. [/B]

Im gonna need you to up your reading and comprehension game. I stated the White Phoenix had never been defined in terms of what it represents, but red and green certainly have. Green is light, creation, hope and compassion and red is darkness, destruction, chaos and the baser side of the human emotional spectrum:

https://imgur.com/fmXjIN0

Dark Phoenix

https://imgur.com/rxfTIUj

Furthermore Marvel confirmed via official publication that Dark Phoenix in fact had full access to the Phoenix Force:

https://imgur.com/tlFpIFF

I quote: "She realised that the dark side of her personality with the full power of the Phoenix Force behind it was taking over"

🙄

Originally posted by Smurph
..what's Dark Phoenix Jean's greatest feat?

Please don't say anything about Kabbalah.

Jean Phoenixes greatest feats are re-energising the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal, wiping out a universe with a thought and materializing 616 in her hand atom by atom.

In Dark Phoenix mode we would look at her demonstrated power levels as a Phoenix but propose strategies based on her demonstrated propensity as Dark Phoenix.

Nowhere has it ever been stated that the Phoenix colours represent different abilities/power levels and it is in fact stated within Marvel publications that the Dark Phoenix state had access to the Phoenixes full power.

This is over. Now twirl your ass back into the ether. 😆

Originally posted by ODG
^ It's not like Galacticstorm couldn't just make a thread called Raven vs Dark Phoenix (w/ all Phoenix feats).

No.

He has to sh1t the bed of this thread with inane conflations whilst hypocritically accusing others of that very same thing.

Popping up like a vulture when you perceive me to be in a weak position, hoping to achieve in a group what you never could alone.

Unless you have something of value to contribute to this discourse then give it a rest you bitter individual. 😬

Or shall we go back to the Comic Book questions thread so i can continue to shit on your wacky Franklin Richards multiversal messiah theories and make you disappear for another month? 😱 😆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Popping up like a vulture when you perceive me to be in a weak position, hoping to achieve in a group what you never could alone.

Unless you have something of value to contribute to this discourse then give it a rest you bitter individual. 😬

Or shall we go back to the Comic Book questions thread so i can continue to shit on your wacky Franklin Richards multiversal messiah theories and make you disappear for another month? 😱 😆

You gotta understand, ODG can't help himself, Astner broke him with his flawless logic. He was beaten so badly he is seeing Astner around every corner.

Originally posted by cdtm
You gotta understand, ODG can't help himself, Astner broke him with his flawless logic. He was beaten so badly he is seeing Astner around every corner.

I can believe it! Lol

The guys neurotic. He's holding on to a grudge from 15yrs ago and becomes a right b*tch at the mere mention of my name. 😆

Really weird behaviour 😕

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Continuity demonstrates that the Phoenix colours are just a reflection of the hosts emotional state.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What a White Phoenix is has NEVER been defined, so your supposition and conjecture can not be pushed as the truth. You can simply make a case for your interpretation and explain why you believe it to be the case and whether people accept it or not, you deal with that outcome. Drop the arrogance.

What's Dark Phoenix Jean's best feat?

Originally posted by Smurph
lol, no, because... Try again.

Errrm. What do you think you've proven here? 😕

Continuity does in fact demonstrate and state that the Phoenix colours reflect a hosts emotional state.

What we dont know however is which emotional state the White Phoenix represents as its never been stated.

Good try. 🙂

Originally posted by Smurph
What's Dark Phoenix Jean's best feat?

Dark Phoenix is a Phoenix host embracing its dark side. But as stated by Marvel, Dark Phoenix has full access to the Phoenix Forces power. Any assertions to the contrary are irrelevant and entirely unsupported by conclusive evidence. 🙁

This:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Jean Phoenixes greatest feats are re-energising the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal, wiping out a universe with a thought and materializing 616 in her hand atom by atom.

In Dark Phoenix mode we would look at her demonstrated power levels as a Phoenix but propose strategies based on her demonstrated propensity as Dark Phoenix.

Nowhere has it ever been stated that the Phoenix colours represent different abilities/power levels and it is in fact stated within Marvel publications that the Dark Phoenix state had access to the Phoenixes full power.

This is over. Now twirl your ass back into the ether. 😆

Still stands 😉

And you actually thought you did something here. WRONG b*tch! 😱

Come again 😆