Originally posted by Smurph
Lets not revise history now ❌
This was your accusation:
Originally posted by Smurph
It's one thing to vehemently assert that Jean can casually warp the multiverse
Im gonna need you to either point out where I said Jean Grey has casually warped the multiverse or acknowledge that you could not find any such statement in this thread, and you therefore retract and apologise for said statement realising it was an error on your part? 🙂
Clearly youve scoured the thread and that was all you could find. Run me my apology whip 😆
Originally posted by Smurph
lol, like I said, hot air and delusion don't create conversation.The words are there on the page.
Even when your fallacies are highlighted in black and white for all to see, you lack the integrity to bring forth any ownership whatsoever.
Forever on your knees Harley jester
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The handbook reiterating what happens on panel is exactly what handbooks are supposed to do.The fact that you dont seem to realise that is not a surprise to me.
Said reiteration is helpful in debate as it gives additional weighting to someones interpretation of a scene where there exists a difference of opinion.
White Phoenixes on panel feats of note that are depicted via on panel statement and artistic depiction are amputating a future reality and manipulation of the atomic structure of a universe.
Both feats have been questioned, both feats are also verified by the Handbooks, thereby making the Handbooks a useful resource to settle disputes over ambiguous scenes.
I didnt misquote you at all. In fact as a result of using the forums in-built quote function i kinda quoted exactly what you said. 🙄
You failed to process the implications of my refutation thats all.
The feat was stated on panel to be purely a result of her telekinesis and said telekinetic prowess was then updated in her profile entry as a part of her standard Phoenix abilities.
As such you have zero conclusive to make the assertion that the feat was only achievable because she was in the crystal. That wasnt stated on panel. The feat was only attributed to her telekinesis.
So the onus is on you to provide conclusive evidence to the contrary. Happy reading 🙂
Jean just like all Phoenixes are indicated to receive training to be a Phoenix, but that points irrelevant when this thread isnt specifically about the UXM 135 to 137 showing.
1) Irrelevant when we're not in a thread restricted to the UXM 135 to 137 showing
2) Location being a relevant factor is purely your supposition. The comic attributes the feat to her telekinesis. The Handbook does the same. Provide conclusive evidence stating explicitly that her telekinesis is limited to the boundaries of the M'kraan crystal. I'll wait.....😆
3) Zero contradictory showings. Her 1st appearance she had showings then other cosmics of the time and was stated to be 2nd to TOAA. She then didnt appear again for 25 yrs so hasnt had appearances in order to benefit from power creed. However if you compare her showings to Marvel cosmics of the late 70s up to 1980 shes top tier. You cant ignore that point. Thats disingenuous.
4) Alternate future feats and characters arent relevant to a discussion regarding 616 iterations of said character, but as ive shown, in Endsong, 616 Jean stated Here Comes Tomorrow was what she lived through and she reflected on her experiences there. Ive said this multiple times now and shown scans. Do not bring this up again.
You have to prove things using on panel evidence, not handbooks. Handbooks are not written by the writers. If there are multiple valid interpretations of what happened on panel then a particular handbook's holds NO water. The fact that handbooks disagree with each other proves this. Therefore, your use of handbooks can not used as any form of evidence. You must argue straight from on panel evidence.
She fixed the broken timeline by urging Cyclops to pursue a relationship with Emma. This is undebatable fact.
The comic states control of "all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training. Not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown."
So we have
1. Not easy
2. Needs training
3. Needs to be a White Phoenix of the crown.
DP has none of those.
Lastly Jean had to die to be reborn 150 years later in White Hot Room to become WPOTC in order to heal the universe.
That doesn't apply to DP.
And why did Jean have to become WPOTC in order to do those feats?
She could have done said feats without going through all that right?
Wrong.
The story requires her to go through the entire process of becoming WPOTC (which takes 150 years) in order to heal the universe.
You don't have to be bloodlusted to WANT TO HEAL THE UNIVERSE.
Therefore you argument that DP was bloodlusted as a reason to why she has full power and mastery of WPOTC is asinine.
There story clearly shows the process Jean had to go through just to achieve the feats in question. Otherwise there was no point in even going through the entire process.
Mate i honestly think theres an underlying comprehension issue here. 😕
Everything youre saying is only relevant if the opening post had set the parameters as Dark Phoenix just as she appeared in issues 135 to 137. Within such parameters what youre saying would have pertinence and validity.
The problem is, the opening post did not set such parameters. Instead of acknowledging that, youre continuing to argue out of pride as our previous discourse has got you locked into a dynamic with me whereby you resent the idea of conceding to me even on occasions where im clearly correct. 😬
But im gonna need you to go do whatever you need to do to shake off your emotional investment in this triviality and come be objective and level headed 👆
Without the aforementioned parameters in the opening post, we're talking about a modern day Jean Phoenix, in Dark Phoenix mode.
Why? Because Dark Phoenix Jean Grey isnt a distinct being limited to UXM 135 to 137. It is just the state of mind Jean can switch to when she doesnt regulate her emotions. We've seen Dark Phoenix appear in Endsong for example. So with Dark Phoenix not being a unique, one-time occurrence exclusive to 1980 and instead being an ongoing risk, one thats appeared in modern times, then "Dark Phoenix" without the parameters previously mentioned, is according to forum rules the up to date, modern Jean Phoenix, gone Dark Phoenix.
Being the modern day, most up to date version, that would include all of her White Phoenix experience and knowledge. You've acknowledged that White Phoenixes feats are a matter of training. As such, this thread allowing for the most recent Jean Grey Phoenix take means its a Jean Grey who has had such training.
Furthermore you have zero evidence to state that Jean Grey was only capable of manipulating the atoms of the universe being within the crystal as that was not stated on panel. What was stated on panel is that she achieved it following her training allowing her telekinesis to reach some a level. So that point is null and void pending you providing some conclusive evidence explicitly stating your point. 🙂 👆
Originally posted by h1a8
You don't have to be bloodlusted to WANT TO HEAL THE UNIVERSE.
Therefore you argument that DP was bloodlusted as a reason to why she has full power and mastery of WPOTC is asinine.
I did not state this. Do not put words in my mouth. 🙄
This is further demonstration of a deficiency with your understanding and interpretive skills.
What ive stated is that official Marvel sources state that the Dark Phoenix state had full access to the Phoenix Force.
Ive also stated that there has never been any official confirmation of different power levels between the Phoenix colours and that all we have been told is the colours reflect a hosts emotional state. With Marvels confirmation that DP has full access to the PF just like the other states being reflective of that.
Ive also stated that there is no conclusive definition for what a White Phoenix is. Whilst New X-men suggests it is a level reached through training, Hope and Fong Ji Wu became White Phoenixes without any Phoenix training and instead through learning to regulate their emotions via the Iron Fist demonstrating that the current take on it is in line with Claremont's original vision of it being a state of emotional balance.
Jeans Endsong appearance also feeds into that when her Dark Phoenix state transitioned to her White Phoenix state through a telepathic broadcast of love and support from her friends that calmed and balanced her.
Hope and Fong-Jis transformations into White Phoenix thereby rubbish your interpretation.
Regardless, as we're talking about a modern Jean Phoenix in Dark Phoenix mode, whether White Phoenix is the result of training or emotional state, is besides the point, a modern Jean Phoenix incorporates Jean Phoenix showings up to and including her last.
Youre gonna have to find a way to come to terms with that reality 🙁
Originally posted by h1a8
You have to prove things using on panel evidence, not handbooks. Handbooks are not written by the writers. If there are multiple valid interpretations of what happened on panel then a particular handbook's holds NO water. The fact that handbooks disagree with each other proves this. Therefore, your use of handbooks can not used as any form of evidence. You must argue straight from on panel evidence.
Completely false.
Handbooks are written in consultation with comic book writers and Marvel editors as stated by the Handbook writers themselves:
http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes.htm#write
If there are multiple interpretations of a comic book scene and a handbook then validates one interpretation in particular then said interpretation goes from being just a forum members interpretation to what should be regarded as canonical fact.
The fact that had to be explained to you is astounding 😱
There can be errors both in comics and handbooks, ( https://screenrant.com/thor-writer-apologizes-mjolnir-continuity-error-marvel-comics/ ) thats why they both have an errata process in place to highlight such errors for future correction:
http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes.htm#mistake
But the fact that errors are possible does not preclude Handbooks from being used as evidence.
Handbooks are an entirely valid and admissible source of evidence here in forum debate. Especially as a supplementary source. They have lower weighting than on panel depictions, but they can be used to corroborate ambiguous comic scenes, letting all of us know, which is to be regarded and accepted as canon:
https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9388817#post9388817
Originally posted by ODG
I mean, handbooks are prohibited from these forum debates but whatever.
https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9388817#post9388817
YIKES! 🤣
So with the admissibility of Handbooks and how they can be used clarified, lets establish what would now be indisputably treated as canon in debate in light of this 🙂 :
In the late 70's and early 80's, stars were used as a benchmark for power and durability. Heroes and cosmic beings were measured against them.
In 1982, LT's maximum output he could commit to was a solar level attack:
In 1980, Uncanny X-men had Dark Phoenix eating stars:
Such feats therefore had her regarded in continuity as top tier at the time:
So a handbook entry stating that Dark Phoenix had access to the full power of the Phoenix Force, was in line with comic depictions at the time and therefore admissible evidence:
The fact that devouring stars by todays standards is now middling, is besides the point. At the level feats were written at in the late 70's early 80's, the feat and therefore Dark Phoenix were stated to be top tier. LT made many appearances since that 1980s showing and was thus able to benefit from decades of power creep. Whereas Dark Phoenix didnt conclusively appear again until 2005. So to look at these old feats in isolation, without acknowledging this context and to then try and assert that because DP was just eating stars that's a clear indication she was a lower level Phoenix is a superficial and disingenuous analysis. The comics stated she was top of the hierarchy from those showings, the handbook supports this presentation by saying she is a Phoenix with full access to the PF.
The comics show the Phoenixes manifestation within Jean was purely to disinfect the planet:
The comics show that Jean extracted Sublime from reality:
Following extracting Sublime, Jean states that the infection was so bad she decided to resort to amputating the future:
The Phoenix replies with "Phoenix disinfection successful" as regardless, Phoenix had accomplished her mission to remove Sublime from reality.
The Handbooks then clarify any ambiguity here telling us in the Here Comes Tomorrow profile that Jean disinfected reality specifically through the action of extracting Sublime:
The M'kraan crystal profile which would obviously have a different focus to the HCT profile addressed her statement that she chose to resort to amputating the future reality 15104:
As i said previously, neither handbook contradicts what's stated or depicted on panel or each other. They just focus on different things as ones a profile covering all the key narrative elements of the Here Comes Tomorrow reality, whilst the other is the profile of the multiversal M'kraan crystal, so the fact that a reality is severed from the multiverse, would be more relevant to said profile, than the in depth coverage of what happened in one of the many realities its associated with.
So both handbooks direct us on how to interpret said scenes and tell us what we should regard as canon. Jean extracted Sublime from reality thereby disinfecting it, she then decided to destroy this future by amputating it from the multiverse.
Jean is then stated on panel explicitly to have total telekinetic control of all of the atoms of the universe:
In response to this incident, the Handbook updated Jean's abilities.
Going from stating she had total telekinetic control of matter at the molecular level:
to then updating and defining the scale at which she was canonically demonstrated to be able to use this power:
"allowing her to manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale."
So going forward, with the highlighted forum rulings on Handbooks being completely permissible as corroborating evidence, the feats above are to be treated as canon in forum debates. 👆
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
uhuh handbooks are supplemental evidence. they just aren't primary evidence. that has been a thing around here since like forever. the mods have spelled that out in different threads too many times to count.
Precisely. ✅
So why didnt you pop up to correct the others when they played dumb to this point? 😛
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Completely false.Handbooks are written in consultation with comic book writers and Marvel editors as stated by the Handbook writers themselves:
That's incorrect. You don't make the rules. Stopping making stuff up. Also the fact that handbooks contradict other handbooks also prove your statement illogical.If there are multiple interpretations of a comic book scene and a handbook then validates one interpretation in particular then said interpretation goes from being just a forum members interpretation to what should be regarded as canonical fact.
The fact that had to be explained to you is astounding 😱
There can be errors both in comics and handbooks, ( https://screenrant.com/thor-writer-apologizes-mjolnir-continuity-error-marvel-comics/ ) thats why they both have an errata process in place to highlight such errors for future correction:
http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes.htm#mistake
But the fact that errors are possible does not preclude Handbooks from being used as evidence.
A particular handbook entry that can be used as evidence is only when it's redundant information. The on panel evidence can stand on its on. That's why no one uses handbooks on this forum. If handbooks states things that the comic doesn't show or state then that handbook CAN NOT BE USED AS EVIDENCE.
Handbooks are an entirely valid and admissible source of evidence here in forum debate. Especially as a supplementary source. They have lower weighting than on panel depictions, but they can be used to corroborate ambiguous comic scenes, letting all of us know, which is to be regarded and accepted as canon:
https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9388817#post9388817 Already covered above.
Originally posted by GalacticStormBut DP and WPOTC can't not exist simultaneously. If you insist that DP exists due to Jean not being able to regulate her emotions then that contradicts Jean's mastery of her emotions at later times. You can't have a DP that has mastered aspects of her emotions and abilities at the same time as not being able to at all. Unless you are making up a contradictory character that never occurred in comics.
Mate i honestly think theres an underlying comprehension issue here. 😕Everything youre saying is only relevant if the opening post had set the parameters as Dark Phoenix just as she appeared in issues 135 to 137. Within such parameters what youre saying would have pertinence and validity.
The problem is, the opening post did not set such parameters. Instead of acknowledging that, youre continuing to argue out of pride as our previous discourse has got you locked into a dynamic with me whereby you resent the idea of conceding to me even on occasions where im clearly correct. 😬
But im gonna need you to go do whatever you need to do to shake off your emotional investment in this triviality and come be objective and level headed 👆
Without the aforementioned parameters in the opening post, we're talking about a modern day Jean Phoenix, in Dark Phoenix mode.
Why? Because Dark Phoenix Jean Grey isnt a distinct being limited to UXM 135 to 137. It is just the state of mind Jean can switch to when she doesnt regulate her emotions. We've seen Dark Phoenix appear in Endsong for example. So with Dark Phoenix not being a unique, one-time occurrence exclusive to 1980 and instead being an ongoing risk, one thats appeared in modern times, then "Dark Phoenix" without the parameters previously mentioned, is according to forum rules the up to date, modern Jean Phoenix, gone Dark Phoenix.
Being the modern day, most up to date version, that would include all of her White Phoenix experience and knowledge. You've acknowledged that White Phoenixes feats are a matter of training. As such, this thread allowing for the most recent Jean Grey Phoenix take means its a Jean Grey who has had such training.
Furthermore you have zero evidence to state that Jean Grey was only capable of manipulating the atoms of the universe being within the crystal as that was not stated on panel. What was stated on panel is that she achieved it following her training allowing her telekinesis to reach some a level. So that point is null and void pending you providing some conclusive evidence explicitly stating your point. 🙂 👆
WPOTC feats are a matter of training and other things as well.
Being reborn in the White Hot room 150 years later (that's how long it took) under specific circumstances is another thing that contributed.
Knowledge alone wasn't enough.
Also, just know that special attributes must be proven (we don't have to prove a negative).
Originally posted by h1a8
Only sometimes. Many times they are not. The fact that handbooks often contradict the comics themselves, and other handbooks, prove this.
[B] That's incorrect. You don't make the rules. Stopping making stuff up. Also the fact that handbooks contradict other handbooks also prove your statement illogical.[B] A particular handbook entry that can be used as evidence is only when it's redundant information. The on panel evidence can stand on its on. That's why no one uses handbooks on this forum. If handbooks states things that the comic doesn't show or state then that handbook CAN NOT BE USED AS EVIDENCE.
[B] Already covered above.
I do not have to go back and forth with you over this issue. 🙄
Handbooks are admissible evidence in this forum. The only time they are not taken as conclusive evidence is where they contradict what's depicted on panel. The rules are specific on that. ✅
If the handbooks have the status of being admissible canon evidence then yes, if they support one posters interpretation over another then the supported posters interpretation is the one with validity.
KMC has spoken. The rules are what they are. If you do not like the forum rules, then go debate on a forum that appreciates your nonsense, or run along and make your own forum where you can tailor the rules so you actually stand a chance of winning a debate blowup 😆
Originally posted by h1a8
But DP and WPOTC can't not exist simultaneously. If you insist that DP exists due to Jean not being able to regulate her emotions then that contradicts Jean's mastery of her emotions at later times. You can't have a DP that has mastered aspects of her emotions and abilities at the same time as not being able to at all. Unless you are making up a contradictory character that never occurred in comics.
WP and DP are just the same woman in different emotional states. A modern Jean Phoenix lived through Here Comes Tomorrow. She doesnt lose all of her knowledge and training by not being White Phoenix. She just has a different propensity which would dictate how she would use that knowledge and ability in comparison to her other states. Allow that point to process before you even consider typing again 😆
Originally posted by h1a8
WPOTC feats are a matter of training and other things as well.
Being reborn in the White Hot room 150 years later (that's how long it took) under specific circumstances is another thing that contributed.
Knowledge alone wasn't enough.
Nope. 1) There has never been any statement in an official Marvel source stating there are different power levels between the Phoenix states. I have shown through evidence an explicit statement stating the Dark Phoenix state had access to the full power of the PF.
2) What a White Phoenix is has never been defined, so you are in no position to assert your opinion as fact.
I highlighted how Fong-Ji and Hope became White Phoenixes without undergoing Phoenix training or a 150yr hiatus, which therefore rubbishes your assertions. In current continuity the latest depiction of what it takes to become a White Phoenix is a state of emotional stability. You conveniently didnt quote and respond to that part but instead opted to repost your nonsense that the Hope/Fong-Ji point counters.
So with this thread allowing the discussion of a modern Jean Phoenix in Dark Phoenix mode, she is the same being who lived through Here Comes Tomorrow, received all of the necessary training and performed all of those feats. Her knowledge doesnt disappear just because she isnt White Phoenix. What changes is her temperament, her attitude. A Dark Phoenix would take that telekinetic mastery and be ruthless with it. 🙂
Originally posted by h1a8
Also, just know that special attributes must be proven (we don't have to prove a negative).
Youre the one assigning special attributes. Not the comics and not the handbooks. The comics simply say the feat was achieved by her telekinesis. If you want to assert it was down to anything else then prove that with evidence. You have failed to do so to date. Let that be a message to you ✅
H1a8 ive got you floundering like a fish outta water, ranting and raving, spouting this and that about forum rules but then hypocritically rejecting them when you find out that actually they dont favour you and then theres your leapfrogging of points you cant counter. 🙄
The second-hand embarrassment i feel for you is staggering 😬