Raven vs Dark Phoenix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I do not have to go back and forth with you over this issue. 🙄

Handbooks are admissible evidence in this forum. The only time they are not taken as conclusive evidence is where they contradict what's depicted on panel. The rules are specific on that. ✅

If the handbooks have the status of being admissible canon evidence then yes, if they support one posters interpretation over another then the supported posters interpretation is the one with validity.

KMC has spoken. The rules are what they are. If you do not like the forum rules, then go debate on a forum that appreciates your nonsense, or run along and make your own forum where you can tailor the rules so you actually stand a chance of winning a debate blowup 😆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
WP and DP are just the same woman in different emotional states. A modern Jean Phoenix lived through Here Comes Tomorrow. She doesnt lose all of her knowledge and training by not being White Phoenix. She just has a different propensity which would dictate how she would use that knowledge and ability in comparison to her other states. Allow that point to process before you even consider typing again 😆

Nope. 1) There has never been any statement in an official Marvel source stating there are different power levels between the Phoenix states. I have shown through evidence an explicit statement stating the Dark Phoenix state had access to the full power of the PF.

2) What a White Phoenix is has never been defined, so you are in no position to assert your opinion as fact.

I highlighted how Fong-Ji and Hope became White Phoenixes without undergoing Phoenix training or a 150yr hiatus, which therefore rubbishes your assertions. In current continuity the latest depiction of what it takes to become a White Phoenix is a state of emotional stability. You conveniently didnt quote and respond to that part but instead opted to repost your nonsense that the Hope/Fong-Ji point counters.

So with this thread allowing the discussion of a modern Jean Phoenix in Dark Phoenix mode, she is the same being who lived through Here Comes Tomorrow, received all of the necessary training and performed all of those feats. Her knowledge doesnt disappear just because she isnt White Phoenix. What changes is her temperament, her attitude. A Dark Phoenix would take that telekinetic mastery and be ruthless with it. 🙂

Youre the one assigning special attributes. Not the comics and not the handbooks. The comics simply say the feat was achieved by her telekinesis. If you want to assert it was down to anything else then prove that with evidence. You have failed to do so to date. Let that be a message to you ✅

I got you there. You basically didn't address what I said. You ignored it and talked around it. Please reread my first paragraph again and address it accordingly. DP and WPOTC can not exist simultaneously for the reasons I've stated.

White Phoenix has nothing to do with WPOTC. Stop confusing the issue. Jean had to go through the process to become WPOTC. That was the plot of the story

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
ODG just stop.

You've already got your sh1t-spam posting method that avoids/excuses all deconstruction. But it's complimented by your increasingly chihuhua-yipping bluster designed to drive constructive criticism and debate from the thread. You'd rather drive everybody out of this thread. And it's obvious why.

Somehow, you're under the delusion that being utterly dismantled for pages is remedied by the last word in an abandoned thread. All this, to promote your preposterous myth over actually discussing the comics.

Good luck with that. KMC over the decades has proven two things to me: (i) you'll always find a troll to match your trolling, and (ii) you'll always find an actual comics fan to debate you.

Sometimes, they're the same poster.

Originally posted by Smurph
lol, like I said, hot air and delusion don't create conversation.

The words are there on the page.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
uhuh handbooks are supplemental evidence. they just aren't primary evidence. that has been a thing around here since like forever. the mods have spelled that out in different threads too many times to count.

Originally posted by Juntai
People aren't popping in and out of the thread because they're defeated in any way at all, but because the whole thing is pretty stupid really.

Originally posted by ODG
What is this? The twelfth thread that descends into shambles the instant you've been utterly proven wrong or have had your hypocrisies pointed out by several posters?

You've already got your sh1t-spam posting method that avoids/excuses all deconstruction. But it's complimented by your increasingly chihuhua-yipping bluster designed to drive constructive criticism and debate from the thread. You'd rather drive everybody out of this thread. And it's obvious why.

Somehow, you're under the delusion that being utterly dismantled for pages is remedied by the last word in an abandoned thread. All this, to promote your preposterous myth over actually discussing the comics.

Good luck with that. KMC over the decades has proven two things to me: [b](i) you'll always find a troll to match your trolling, and (ii) you'll always find an actual comics fan to debate you.

Sometimes, they're the same poster. [/B]

An unhinged ad-hominem rant in lieu of an argument.

I accept your surrender surrender

You popped up, antagonized, bitched and derided only to turn around and get your ass absolutely washed and you're seething. 😆

Up in here with your condescension and airs and graces, yet ultimately you were light work homie. 😮‍💨

Your usefulness to this debate has come to an end. Barely started to be honest. 😬

Now return to irrelevance. bye

Originally posted by h1a8
If handbooks state things that on panel doesn't show or state then they contradict on panel evidence. If you can show that the handbook states what is shown on panel then congratulations, the on panel evidence can stand on its on.

If a handbook presents a contrary account to what's explicitly shown on panel then the comic book account has more weighting and the Handbook can be discounted in that particular instance.

You previously asserted that handbooks could not be used as evidence at all. I highlighted how you were very wrong on that point.

An adult stands up and acknowledges their errors. They do not side step them and focus on something else 😬

Explicit comic book accounts should be able to stand on their own. However you get some comic book readers who will dismiss the obvious out of either fanaticism or an unfortunate case of pride and emotional immaturity, so the Handbooks through their reiteration of what is canon become a useful resource in settling debates. 🙂

Originally posted by h1a8
I got you there. You basically didn't address what I said. You ignored it and talked around it. Please reread my first paragraph again and address it accordingly. DP and WPOTC can not exist simultaneously for the reasons I've stated.

You havent got a thing. I addressed exactly what you said.

DP and WP are reflections of different emotional states of the same being. However there is zero explicit canonical evidence either on panel or in the handbooks to state that their abilities or power levels differ. So them not manifesting at the same time is irrelevant.

There is zero evidence that DP is a weaker state. But conversely you have on panel feats that were top tier for the time they were written and on panel statements that herald her as second to TOAA based on such showings. Then you have a handbook account that supports these statements by saying explicitly, that DP has full access to the PF's power.

You on the other hand just have your unsupported interpretation. You therefore lose. Come to terms with that ✅

Originally posted by h1a8
White Phoenix has nothing to do with WPOTC. Stop confusing the issue. Jean had to go through the process to become WPOTC. That was the plot of the story

Nope. Thats just what youre asserting with zero conclusive evidence. Recognize the difference between explicit, canonical fact and what you wish to be the case just to have a point to argue with 😆

Originally posted by ODG

I mean, handbooks are prohibited from these forum debates but whatever.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
uhuh handbooks are supplemental evidence. they just aren't primary evidence. that has been a thing around here since like forever. the mods have spelled that out in different threads too many times to count.

https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9388817#post9388817

👆 👆 👆

Originally posted by cdtm
You gotta understand, ODG can't help himself, Astner broke him with his flawless logic. He was beaten so badly he is seeing Astner around every corner.

💃

Two can play that game. 😆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If a handbook presents a contrary account to what's explicitly shown on panel then the comic book account has more weighting and the Handbook can be discounted in that particular instance.

You previously asserted that handbooks could not be used as evidence at all. I highlighted how you were very wrong on that point.

An adult stands up and acknowledges their errors. They do not side step them and focus on something else 😬

Explicit comic book accounts should be able to stand on their own. However you get some comic book readers who will dismiss the obvious out of either fanaticism or an unfortunate case of pride and emotional immaturity, so the Handbooks through their reiteration of what is canon become a useful resource in settling debates. 🙂

But if they don't contradict on panel evidence then are they really being used as evidence? Or is it the on panel evidence being used?

Bottomline : If the handbook adds things that hasn't been explicitly shown nor directly mentioned in comics then that handbook can not be used as evidence. You are using handbooks as primary evidence, handbooks that doesn't explicitly show nor mentioned the things that are shown or mentioned in the comic. The fact that another handbook contradicts the handbook you are using automatically makes it faulty to use.

If a person ignores on panel evidence then they are trolling. No need for handbooks.

Just image the handbook states that DP thought of sucking Logan's pickle while she was making a star go supernova. Does that contradict on panel? The comic didn't show what she was thinking of at the time, so it could be true right?

Handbooks that adds information not explicitly shown can not be used.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You havent got a thing. I addressed exactly what you said.

DP and WP are reflections of different emotional states of the same being. However there is zero explicit canonical evidence either on panel or in the handbooks to state that their abilities or power levels differ. So them not manifesting at the same time is irrelevant.

There is zero evidence that DP is a weaker state. But conversely you have on panel feats that were top tier for the time they were written and on panel statements that herald her as second to TOAA based on such showings. Then you have a handbook account that supports these statements by saying explicitly, that DP has full access to the PF's power.

You on the other hand just have your unsupported interpretation. You therefore lose. Come to terms with that ✅

Nope. Thats just what youre asserting with zero conclusive evidence. Recognize the difference between explicit, canonical fact and what you wish to be the case just to have a point to argue with 😆

They are not reflections of anything. DP is a real character in the comics. What are you talking about? DP can not exist in current Jean's state of mind or in WPOTC state of mind. DP can only exists in a noob Jean that hasn't mastered how to gain control.

There is 100% evidence that DP is weaker. Just look at all her showings. Look at PF showings without a host. They are terrible weak in comparison to abstract level. Lmao when you say zero evidence.
DP hasn't had any training, nor incubated for 150 years in white hot room, etc. You are basically creating a made up hypothetical character that never occurred in comics in DP with WPOTC mentality.

Originally posted by h1a8
But if they don't contradict on panel evidence then are they really being used as evidence? Or is it the on panel evidence being used?

Bottomline : If the handbook adds things that hasn't been explicitly shown nor directly mentioned in comics then that handbook can not be used as evidence. You are using handbooks as primary evidence, handbooks that doesn't explicitly show nor mentioned the things that are shown or mentioned in the comic. The fact that another handbook contradicts the handbook you are using automatically makes it faulty to use.

If a person ignores on panel evidence then they are trolling. No need for handbooks.

Just image the handbook states that DP thought of sucking Logan's pickle while she was making a star go supernova. Does that contradict on panel? The comic didn't show what she was thinking of at the time, so it could be true right?

Handbooks that adds information not explicitly shown can not be used. [/B][/QUOTE]

Dont accuse me of doing something without relaying a specific example.

I typed up a long ass post highlighting via scans what was specifically shown on panel and then followed with scans of the handbooks stating the exact same thing.

Either youve neglected to read said post or youre rejecting it as it doesnt align with the narrative you want to push.

Which is it? 🙂

Originally posted by h1a8
They are not reflections of anything. DP is a real character in the comics. What are you talking about? DP can not exist in current Jean's state of mind or in WPOTC state of mind. DP can only exists in a noob Jean that hasn't mastered how to gain control.

There is 100% evidence that DP is weaker. Just look at all her showings. Look at PF showings without a host. They are terrible weak in comparison to abstract level. Lmao when you say zero evidence.
DP hasn't had any training, nor incubated for 150 years in white hot room, etc. You are basically creating a made up hypothetical character that never occurred in comics in DP with WPOTC mentality.

Bro. Do not make assert your opinions as fact.

Youre giving pure head canon.

Dark Phoenix is not a one off, unique character excusive to UXM 135 to 137. When in possession of the PF Jean is at an ongoing risk or becoming Dark Phoenix as the Phoenix embodies emotion. So hosts have to constantly fight against the duality of the Phoenix.

Endsong demonstrated this perfectly. Despite having been the White Phoenix previously, Jean was overwhelmed by the emotionally volatile Phoenix shard and became Dark Phoenix, before the X-men were able to telepathically calm her down and reach a state of emotional balance at which point she became White Phoenix.

With regards to DP showings being weaker ive addressed this several times. in this thread now and no longer need to repeat myself.

The comics heralded Phoenix as 2nd to TOAA based on those showings and the handbooks verified this account saying DP had access to the full Phoenix Force.

Your counterargument is your disingenuous opinion.

You just dont like to lose. Which is why it was very foolish of you to engage me in the 1st place.

Unless you post some on panel scenes which explicitly state that DP is weaker than the other Phoenix states then this discussion is over, you will get no further replies and i have won. 🙂

A reiteration of your head canon unaccompanied by scans explicitly stating what youre saying, will be ignored. 😄

I messed up with the quoting 2 posts back so i just posted again 🙂

Originally posted by h1a8
Bottomline : If the handbook adds things that hasn't been explicitly shown nor directly mentioned in comics then that handbook can not be used as evidence. You are using handbooks as primary evidence, handbooks that doesn't explicitly show nor mentioned the things that are shown or mentioned in the comic. The fact that another handbook contradicts the handbook you are using automatically makes it faulty to use.

If a person ignores on panel evidence then they are trolling. No need for handbooks.

Just image the handbook states that DP thought of sucking Logan's pickle while she was making a star go supernova. Does that contradict on panel? The comic didn't show what she was thinking of at the time, so it could be true right?

Handbooks that adds information not explicitly shown can not be used.

Dont accuse me of doing something without relaying a specific example.

I typed up a long ass post highlighting via scans what was specifically shown on panel and then followed with scans of the handbooks stating the exact same thing.

Either youve neglected to read said post or youre rejecting it as it doesnt align with the narrative you want to push.

Which is it? 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I messed up with the quoting 2 posts back so i just posted again 🙂

Dont accuse me of doing something without relaying a specific example.

I typed up a long ass post highlighting via scans what was specifically shown on panel and then followed with scans of the handbooks stating the exact same thing.

Either youve neglected to read said post or youre rejecting it as it doesnt align with the narrative you want to push.

Which is it? 🙂

That's incorrect. You basically are forcing the handbooks interpretation to align with the panel. The handbook stated things not mentioned or shown in the comic. In fact, another handbook has a different take on the matter. So basically you are picking and choosing which take you want to support.

Comics can stand on their own. Handbooks are not needed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Bro. Do not make assert your opinions as fact.

Youre giving pure head canon.

Dark Phoenix is not a one off, unique character excusive to UXM 135 to 137. When in possession of the PF Jean is at an ongoing risk or becoming Dark Phoenix as the Phoenix embodies emotion. So hosts have to constantly fight against the duality of the Phoenix.

Endsong demonstrated this perfectly. Despite having been the White Phoenix previously, Jean was overwhelmed by the emotionally volatile Phoenix shard and became Dark Phoenix, before the X-men were able to telepathically calm her down and reach a state of emotional balance at which point she became White Phoenix.

With regards to DP showings being weaker ive addressed this several times. in this thread now and no longer need to repeat myself.

The comics heralded Phoenix as 2nd to TOAA based on those showings and the handbooks verified this account saying DP had access to the full Phoenix Force.

Your counterargument is your disingenuous opinion.

You just dont like to lose. Which is why it was very foolish of you to engage me in the 1st place.

Unless you post some on panel scenes which explicitly state that DP is weaker than the other Phoenix states then this discussion is over, you will get no further replies and i have won. 🙂

A reiteration of your head canon unaccompanied by scans explicitly stating what youre saying, will be ignored. 😄

Jean never became DP after becoming WPOTC. Wth are you talking about? White colored Phoenix is not WPOTC (where her training was complete).

No comic states Phoenix as 2nd to Toaa. Now you are becoming a liar. Handbooks don't count if the comic doesn't state this.

Every on panel showing shows DP being weaker. WPOTC is even stronger than all the other Phoenix beings. Why would DP have access to what all WPOTC can do when all the others don't, especially without going through the process, and when all her showings contradict it.
A being 2nd to Toaa is not going to get beaten nor struggle with beings many chains of commands lower

Originally posted by h1a8
That's incorrect. You basically are forcing the handbooks interpretation to align with the panel. The handbook stated things not mentioned or shown in the comic. In fact, another handbook has a different take on the matter. So basically you are picking and choosing which take you want to support.

Comics can stand on their own. Handbooks are not needed.

Thats not true at all. I debunked that misconception and showed not only how there was zero contradiction between the handbooks, but also exactly how the handbooks reiterated what was explicitly shown in the comics.

Highlight which specific feats im using that only the handbooks state but the comics dont mention.

Youre out here regurgitating someone elses debunked argument without the faintest idea about the specifics. 😆

Come harder 😬

Originally posted by h1a8
Jean never became DP after becoming WPOTC. Wth are you talking about? White colored Phoenix is not WPOTC (where her training was complete).

Bro stop asserting things unless you know theyre a fact. Stop 😆

New X-men 154 released in 2004. Endsong released in 2005. Endsong Jean referenced Here Comes Tomorrow and claimed all of that experience as her own and reiterated conversations she had in Here Comes Tomorrow. It is the same Jean, with the same training.

In Endsong Jean manifested all Phoenix states. Green, Red and White in response to her emotional state.

Originally posted by h1a8
No comic states Phoenix as 2nd to Toaa. Now you are becoming a liar. Handbooks don't count if the comic doesn't state this.

Stop asserting things unless you know theyre a fact. If you have doubts then ask questions you arrogant guy 😆

https://imgur.com/qyYw0nE

The Watcher stated Phoenix was 2nd to the supreme being at the time.

Originally posted by h1a8
Every on panel showing shows DP being weaker. WPOTC is even stronger than all the other Phoenix beings. Why would DP have access to what all WPOTC can do when all the others don't, especially without going through the process, and when all her showings contradict it.

Bro your problem is you either dont read my posts or you dont understand them. Ive explained this at least 3 or 4 times now. I aint repeating myself.

It states explicitly that DP has the full power of the PF in the handbook. On panel nowhere is that contradicted, with Dark Phoenix pulling off feats at the time that were top tier and greater than you were seeing from how Living Tribunal and other Marvel cosmics were being written at the time.

Originally posted by h1a8
A being 2nd to Toaa is not going to get beaten nor struggle with beings many chains of commands lower

Whether you like the idea or not is irrelevant. It was stated on panel. You are not a Marvel writer or editor. You can call it stupid and hate the concept all you want, but it was the official Marvel line at the time. Deal with it 😉

So to sum things up h1a8

1) You 1st state the handbooks cannot be used as forum evidence. I then shut you down on that issue and proved you wrong:

https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9388817#post9388817

2) Being the sore loser you are you then tried to assert that the feats confirmed by the handbooks arent stated on panel and also tried to hop on to ODG's argument about how the handbooks contradict each other. This is all despite the fact that i debunked both points a page or two back:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The comics show the Phoenixes manifestation within Jean was purely to disinfect the planet:

https://imgur.com/rmWM4aQ

The comics show that Jean extracted Sublime from reality:

https://imgur.com/gmYWUFf

Following extracting Sublime, Jean states that the infection was so bad she decided to resort to amputating the future:

https://imgur.com/OKI2ENX

The Phoenix replies with "Phoenix disinfection successful" as regardless, Phoenix had accomplished her mission to remove Sublime from reality.

The Handbooks then clarify any ambiguity here telling us in the Here Comes Tomorrow profile that Jean disinfected reality specifically through the action of extracting Sublime:

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

The M'kraan crystal profile which would obviously have a different focus to the HCT profile addressed her statement that she chose to resort to amputating the future reality 15104:

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

As i said previously, neither handbook contradicts what's stated or depicted on panel or each other. They just focus on different things as ones a profile covering all the key narrative elements of the Here Comes Tomorrow reality, whilst the other is the profile of the multiversal M'kraan crystal, so the fact that a reality is severed from the multiverse, would be more relevant to said profile, than the in depth coverage of what happened in one of the many realities its associated with.

So both handbooks direct us on how to interpret said scenes and tell us what we should regard as canon. Jean extracted Sublime from reality thereby disinfecting it, she then decided to destroy this future by amputating it from the multiverse.

Jean is then stated on panel explicitly to have total telekinetic control of all of the atoms of the universe:

https://imgur.com/pfqD6pU

In response to this incident, the Handbook updated Jean's abilities.

Going from stating she had total telekinetic control of matter at the molecular level:

https://imgur.com/7gznS6V

to then updating and defining the scale at which she was canonically demonstrated to be able to use this power:

https://imgur.com/hYX4UPd

"allowing her to manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale."

So going forward, with the highlighted forum rulings on Handbooks being completely permissible as corroborating evidence, the feats above are to be treated as canon in forum debates. 👆

3) You also try and assert that Dark Phoenixes showings are proof she cant be as powerful as the other Phoenix states. A point ive also previously addressed:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

In the late 70's and early 80's, stars were used as a benchmark for power and durability. Heroes and cosmic beings were measured against them.

In 1982, LT's maximum output he could commit to was a solar level attack:

https://imgur.com/yIvfIBa

https://imgur.com/T2UUrbX

In 1980, Uncanny X-men had Dark Phoenix trump that by having her eating stars:

https://imgur.com/CQwutvy

Such feats therefore had her regarded in continuity as top tier at the time:

https://imgur.com/qyYw0nE

So a handbook entry stating that Dark Phoenix had access to the full power of the Phoenix Force, was in line with comic depictions at the time and therefore admissible evidence:

https://imgur.com/tlFpIFF

The fact that devouring stars by todays standards is now middling, is besides the point. At the level feats were written at in the late 70's early 80's, the feat and therefore Dark Phoenix were stated to be top tier. LT made many appearances since that 1980s showing and was thus able to benefit from decades of power creep. Whereas Dark Phoenix didnt conclusively appear again until 2005. So to look at these old feats in isolation, without acknowledging this context and to then try and assert that because DP was just eating stars that's a clear indication she was a lower level Phoenix is a superficial and disingenuous analysis. The comics stated she was top of the hierarchy from those showings, the handbook supports this presentation by saying she is a Phoenix with full access to the PF.