Raven vs Dark Phoenix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Bro stop asserting things unless you know theyre a fact. Stop 😆

New X-men 154 released in 2004. Endsong released in 2005. Endsong Jean referenced Here Comes Tomorrow and claimed all of that experience as her own and reiterated conversations she had in Here Comes Tomorrow. It is the same Jean, with the same training.

In Endsong Jean manifested all Phoenix states. Green, Red and White in response to her emotional state.

Stop asserting things unless you know theyre a fact. If you have doubts then ask questions you arrogant guy 😆

https://imgur.com/qyYw0nE

The Watcher stated Phoenix was 2nd to the supreme being at the time.

Bro your problem is you either dont read my posts or you dont understand them. Ive explained this at least 3 or 4 times now. I aint repeating myself.

It states explicitly that DP has the full power of the PF in the handbook. On panel nowhere is that contradicted, with Dark Phoenix pulling off feats at the time that were top tier and greater than you were seeing from how Living Tribunal and other Marvel cosmics were being written at the time.

Whether you like the idea or not is irrelevant. It was stated on panel. You are not a Marvel writer or editor. You can call it stupid and hate the concept all you want, but it was the official Marvel line at the time. Deal with it 😉

1. That comic is so old. Many beings were stated to be omnipotent, supreme, etc. Marvel cosmology has changed tremendously throughout the years. The fact that Phoenix Force was getting owned by mere aliens and other beings disprove that statement. In all other showings, Phoenix never ever appeared more powerful than even Galactus or even Odin.

2. In Endsong, you are basically saying that Jean saying that Phoenix and her are one is your reason why you believe DP has all the knowledge and training of WPOTC from 150 years in an alternative future. That's crazy. First of all, through the whole story, DP was incomplete and out of balance. She couldn't even remember everything. She didn't even remember that her and Jean are one. She asked Jean, " How did you do that without MY POWER." ALSO, She needed to feed on Optic blasts to stay alive. DP and a FULLY COMPLETE WPOTC are two entirely different characters with different power levels.

3. Before the story (or at the beginning) the PF was getting owned by the Shiar. So even the PF is not as powerful as you say.

4. It's a reason why Jean went to the White Hot room to fix the timeline. It's out of time and space and outside the universe.

5. Lastly, Jean's only feat was reaching through time and nudging Scott to choose differently. She never actually manipulated (controlled all the atoms of the universe at one time).
Parts of her never came home in Endsong. She was always incomplete and struggling.

6. The comic states the hospital (to repair the universe) is the White Hot room. That's why Jean went there. She couldn't do it outside the White Hot room.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman Prime didn’t just lose to the 7 deadly sins. UnKindness Raven was there amping them, she also designed it as a sneak attack.
UnKindness Raven was becoming more powerful than the Presence/Overvoid and still had to sneak attack blitz Superman. Then had the goal of finishing the job before he could recover. lol.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. That comic is so old. Many beings were stated to be omnipotent, supreme, etc. Marvel cosmology has changed tremendously throughout the years. The fact that Phoenix Force was getting owned by mere aliens and other beings disprove that statement. In all other showings, Phoenix never ever appeared more powerful than even Galactus or even Odin.

Theres a major difference between being called supreme or omnipotent and being stated by a reputable authority on cosmic affairs(The Watcher) to be 2nd only to the supreme being. Dark Phoenix pulled off feats that were top tier at its time and outdid how beings like LT were written at the time. Hence Watchers statement. In face of that evidence your empty words change nothing. Youve lost this point.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. In Endsong, you are basically saying that Jean saying that Phoenix and her are one is your reason why you believe DP has all the knowledge and training of WPOTC from 150 years in an alternative future. That's crazy. First of all, through the whole story, DP was incomplete and out of balance. She couldn't even remember everything. She didn't even remember that her and Jean are one. She asked Jean, " How did you do that without MY POWER." ALSO, She needed to feed on Optic blasts to stay alive. DP and a FULLY COMPLETE WPOTC are two entirely different characters with different power levels.

Nope. Thats not what im saying at all. Im saying that all Jean achieved in Here Comes Tomorrow was stated to be a result of her telekinesis and the knowledge she had gained up until that point. That is supported by both the comic and handbooks. So Endsong occurring after that event with her consciousness back in the present(youve gotta remember she cut away those 150 years of future) means we were dealing with the same Jean.

As for Endsong, youre clearly binge reading evidence in a desperate attempt to stifle your losing streak and its resulting in you misinterpreting and getting things horribly wrong lol.

What youre referring to in Endsong is a maddened hostless Phoenix fragment. Not even Dark Phoenix Jean. Phoenix Jean is a result of the symbiosis between PF and host and thats what this debates about. We didnt see Dark Phoenix Jean until the last few pages of Endsong, when this shards insanity made Jean transition into a Dark Phoenix state.

What has this got to do with anything? Its already a known fact that Endsong featured a Phoenix fragment and not a complete Phoenix Force avatar. But that point only goes against you. It means you cant use Endsong as a demonstration of Dark Phoenix being a weaker Phoenix host state when the Phoenix Force and host symbiosis in that story involved only a Phoenix Force fragment.

Good try though 👆

Originally posted by h1a8
3. Before the story (or at the beginning) the PF was getting owned by the Shiar. So even the PF is not as powerful as you say.

Only from a biased and disingenuous perspective 🙂

The Shiar triggered the manifestation of a Phoenix Force shard and then weaponised a black hole to fragment that shard into an even smaller shard.

So what? Its a long established fact that the PF is ultimately indestructible. It can be broken down, absorbed by others, metabolized and farted out and it'll still be alive in a different state 😆

Its mutable, indestructible life force. All life is made up of Phoenix Force. Its its very nature to be used and abused as dictated by the cycle of life lol

And what does this point have to do with the debate regarding Dark Phoenix i.e the host/PF symbiosis?

Its like you're desperately throwing shit at the wall until something sticks.

You lost this debate pages ago and you're just digging yourself a deeper hole.

Originally posted by h1a8
4. It's a reason why Jean went to the White Hot room to fix the timeline. It's out of time and space and outside the universe.

We can guess and hypothesize all we want, but the fact of the matter is that all thats stated on panel is that the feat was achieved via telekinesis. Nowhere was it stated that she received or required a location based power up, therefore you have no grounds to assert it. Without explicit evidence, your point is null and void. Moving on....

Originally posted by h1a8
5. Lastly, Jean's only feat was reaching through time and nudging Scott to choose differently. She never actually manipulated (controlled all the atoms of the universe at one time).

Grow up and learn to accept defeat.

I highlighted in my last series of posts (which themselves were a repost) how the comic EXPLICITLY stated what feats Jean performed and then i coupled those on panel depictions with handbooks stating what Jean did.

Jean extracted Sublime thereby disinfecting reality, because of the damage done by the infection she amputated those 150yrs of future from the multiverse, Jean then materialized the wounded universe inside the M'kraan crystal where its stated explicitly she had telekinetic control of all of the universe's atoms, Jean then telepathically nudged Cyclops to take a different path to the one he did previously which caused the HCT future.

This was all stated on panel and corroborated by the Handbooks.

Unless you can provide explicit on panel evidence that shows without a shadow of a doubt that these things did not actually occur then your words to the contrary are baseless, empty and entirely insufficient. 🙁

Originally posted by h1a8
Parts of her never came home in Endsong. She was always incomplete and struggling.

So what? 😕 We know this. That was the whole basis of the story lol. How does this prove a difference in power level between a hosts different Phoenix states? It doesnt. It just means Endsong cannot be used to prove your point. 😆

Originally posted by h1a8
6. The comic states the hospital (to repair the universe) is the White Hot room. That's why Jean went there. She couldn't do it outside the White Hot room.

That'd be your supposition. Your interpretation that youre asserting as fact without any explicit or conclusive evidence to back you up.

You have to learn the difference between your interpretation and what is explicitly stated thereby becoming conclusive evidence.

We can hypothesize or guess as to why the Phoenix Consciousness urged her to treat the "patient" in the "hospital." Given all of the medical metaphors used, it could be that the White Hot Room/hospital was the safest environment for the procedure to take place. For example a surgeon with the knowledge and access to all the right tools/equipment can perform an operation anywhere, but its within the sterile environment of the operating theatre, that the patient has the best chance of surviving the operation.

We also saw how within the "hospital" other Phoenix hosts gathered around to watch the procedure as if they were learning and taking notes from a more experienced Phoenix. So given the presentation of a "Phoenix corps" where hosts were in training to learn to become medics of reality, it could be that the Phoenix Consciousness wanted to make this a learning opportunity for all of the other hosts who were assembled in the M'kraan crystal.

There are many guesses you can make as ive demonstrated. But without validation from an official source they cannot be pushed as fact. If your interpretation is not officially validated and someone elses is, you have to drop the ego, drop the pride and accept that.

On panel her training and telekinesis were all that was credited for the feat. It was not stated "you need to go into the White Hot Room in order to have the power and ability to perform this feat."

That would be an example of explicit, conclusive evidence. You do not have this. So you cannot assert your opinion as fact.

The scene states her training and tk allowed her total control of all of the universe's atoms. The Handbook then states total telekinetic control of atomic structures on a universal scale are part of Jeans Phoenix abilities therefore confirming to us readers what is canon.

Your words to the contrary are empty. You have lost this point. 👆

Where's Mr Master?

I want to see another 20 page argument about this.

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Where's Mr Master?

I want to see another 20 page argument about this.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres a major difference between being called supreme or omnipotent and being stated by a reputable authority on cosmic affairs(The Watcher) to be 2nd only to the supreme being. Dark Phoenix pulled off feats that were top tier at its time and outdid how beings like LT were written at the time. Hence Watchers statement. In face of that evidence your empty words change nothing. Youve lost this point.

Nope. Thats not what im saying at all. Im saying that all Jean achieved in Here Comes Tomorrow was stated to be a result of her telekinesis and the knowledge she had gained up until that point. That is supported by both the comic and handbooks. So Endsong occurring after that event with her consciousness back in the present(youve gotta remember she cut away those 150 years of future) means we were dealing with the same Jean.

As for Endsong, youre clearly binge reading evidence in a desperate attempt to stifle your losing streak and its resulting in you misinterpreting and getting things horribly wrong lol.

What youre referring to in Endsong is a maddened hostless Phoenix fragment. Not even Dark Phoenix Jean. Phoenix Jean is a result of the symbiosis between PF and host and thats what this debates about. We didnt see Dark Phoenix Jean until the last few pages of Endsong, when this shards insanity made Jean transition into a Dark Phoenix state.

What has this got to do with anything? Its already a known fact that Endsong featured a Phoenix fragment and not a complete Phoenix Force avatar. But that point only goes against you. It means you cant use Endsong as a demonstration of Dark Phoenix being a weaker Phoenix host state when the Phoenix Force and host symbiosis in that story involved only a Phoenix Force fragment.

Good try though 👆

Only from a biased and disingenuous perspective 🙂

The Shiar triggered the manifestation of a Phoenix Force shard and then weaponised a black hole to fragment that shard into an even smaller shard.

So what? Its a long established fact that the PF is ultimately indestructible. It can be broken down, absorbed by others, metabolized and farted out and it'll still be alive in a different state 😆

Its mutable, indestructible life force. All life is made up of Phoenix Force. Its its very nature to be used and abused as dictated by the cycle of life lol

And what does this point have to do with the debate regarding Dark Phoenix i.e the host/PF symbiosis?

Its like you're desperately throwing shit at the wall until something sticks.

You lost this debate pages ago and you're just digging yourself a deeper hole.

We can guess and hypothesize all we want, but the fact of the matter is that all thats stated on panel is that the feat was achieved via telekinesis. Nowhere was it stated that she received or required a location based power up, therefore you have no grounds to assert it. Without explicit evidence, your point is null and void. Moving on....

Grow up and learn to accept defeat.

I highlighted in my last series of posts (which themselves were a repost) how the comic EXPLICITLY stated what feats Jean performed and then i coupled those on panel depictions with handbooks stating what Jean did.

Jean extracted Sublime thereby disinfecting reality, because of the damage done by the infection she amputated those 150yrs of future from the multiverse, Jean then materialized the wounded universe inside the M'kraan crystal where its stated explicitly she had telekinetic control of all of the universe's atoms, Jean then telepathically nudged Cyclops to take a different path to the one he did previously which caused the HCT future.

This was all stated on panel and corroborated by the Handbooks.

Unless you can provide [b]explicit on panel evidence that shows without a shadow of a doubt that these things did not actually occur then your words to the contrary are baseless, empty and entirely insufficient. 🙁

So what? 😕 We know this. That was the whole basis of the story lol. How does this prove a difference in power level between a hosts different Phoenix states? It doesnt. It just means Endsong cannot be used to prove your point. 😆

That'd be your supposition. Your interpretation that youre asserting as fact without any explicit or conclusive evidence to back you up.

You have to learn the difference between your interpretation and what is explicitly stated thereby becoming conclusive evidence.

We can hypothesize or guess as to why the Phoenix Consciousness urged her to treat the "patient" in the "hospital." Given all of the medical metaphors used, it could be that the White Hot Room/hospital was the safest environment for the procedure to take place. For example a surgeon with the knowledge and access to all the right tools/equipment can perform an operation anywhere, but its within the sterile environment of the operating theatre, that the patient has the best chance of surviving the operation.

We also saw how within the "hospital" other Phoenix hosts gathered around to watch the procedure as if they were learning and taking notes from a more experienced Phoenix. So given the presentation of a "Phoenix corps" where hosts were in training to learn to become medics of reality, it could be that the Phoenix Consciousness wanted to make this a learning opportunity for all of the other hosts who were assembled in the M'kraan crystal.

There are many guesses you can make as ive demonstrated. But without validation from an official source they cannot be pushed as fact. If your interpretation is not officially validated and someone elses is, you have to drop the ego, drop the pride and accept that.

On panel her training and telekinesis were all that was credited for the feat. It was not stated "you need to go into the White Hot Room in order to have the power and ability to perform this feat."

That would be an example of explicit, conclusive evidence. You do not have this. So you cannot assert your opinion as fact.

The scene states her training and tk allowed her total control of all of the universe's atoms. The Handbook then states total telekinetic control of atomic structures on a universal scale are part of Jeans Phoenix abilities therefore confirming to us readers what is canon.

Your words to the contrary are empty. You have lost this point. 👆 [/B]

You sure post a lot of words. The smarter one is the less and more consise their posts.

I'll be brief, as you should too.
1. There is no such character in comics DP with WPOTC mentality, training, etc. That would be an impossible hypothetical character. We debate characters that have been shown in comics (unless OP gives stips). The times DP has been shown were before here comes tomorrow and at select times in Endsong. At no point did DP occur in comics fully intact with full WPOTC knowledge, mentality, and memories. That would be a contradiction. If Jean was fully intact then it would be impossible for her to become DP. DP can only exist in either fragmented PF or before Jean learned to master her emotions (Dark Phoenix saga).

2. Since there is evidence pointing that Jean went inside the crystal to heal the universe, then the onus is on you to prove that she didn't need to go in there to do that. Special attributes must be proven.

3. I've read the comics. Everything you say isn't mentioned in the comic at all. It's like you twisted the whole story to match your agenda. Jean pulled sublime out of Beast. Not a great feat. Jean went inside the crystal and reached through time and nudged Cyclops. That's her feats. She didn't do anything else but those 2 things.

Originally posted by h1a8
You sure post a lot of words. The smarter one is the less and more consise their posts.

If this baseless assertion was true (it isnt) you are the demonstrated exception.

I adapt post length to my audience. Someone with intelligence and objectivity can get a well evidenced concise retort.

Your disingenuity and irrationality gets you War and Peace. A reference that'll probably go over your head 🙂

Originally posted by h1a8
I'll be brief, as you should too.
1. There is no such character in comics DP with WPOTC mentality, training, etc. That would be an impossible hypothetical character. We debate characters that have been shown in comics (unless OP gives stips). The times DP has been shown were before here comes tomorrow and at select times in Endsong. At no point did DP occur in comics fully intact with full WPOTC knowledge, mentality, and memories. That would be a contradiction. If Jean was fully intact then it would be impossible for her to become DP. DP can only exist in either fragmented PF or before Jean learned to master her emotions (Dark Phoenix saga).

Nope. A Phoenix is a symbiosis between Phoenix Force and host. The Phoenix Force embodies emotion and the passion of creation. Light and dark, life, death and rebirth, creation and destruction. It is an entity of duality. A Dark Phoenix manifestation occurs when said host is overwhelmed by the darker aspects of the Forces being. Thats all a Dark Phoenix is.

What youre referring to are different ways Jean has been triggered into a Dark Phoenix state. But it is all the same Jean Phoenix.

The Jean of Here Comes Tomorrow, is the same Jean who appeared in Endsong, with all of the same knowledge. It was the Phoenix shard who was confused and compromised because of what happened to it (shattered in New X-men, reconstituted in an incomplete state and then shattered again) and when it jumped into Jean Phoenix its temporary insanity triggered her Dark Phoenix manifestation:

https://imgur.com/QBmBAzC

https://imgur.com/Xo30eOR

Jean however demonstrated above and in this scan below that she knew exactly what was going on and was the same Phoenix of the Crown, residing in the Crown ahead of this rogue Phoenix Force manifestation:

https://imgur.com/xPrAFEc

"In the Crown. Stepping into the White Hot Room."

Game. Set. Match. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by h1a8
2. Since there is evidence pointing that Jean went inside the crystal to heal the universe, then the onus is on you to prove that she didn't need to go in there to do that. Special attributes must be proven.

The achievement of the feat was attributed to her training and telekinesis both on panel and in the handbooks which updated her standard abilities to reflect this feat. It is your interpretation that the crystal afforded her some special attribute that enabled her to perform the feat (despite two official sources providing explicit statements to the contrary) so as per your logic ("Special attributes must be proven."😉 please provide conclusive evidence that Jean's control of the universe's atoms was achieved through a location based power up.... 😉

Originally posted by h1a8
3. I've read the comics. Everything you say isn't mentioned in the comic at all. It's like you twisted the whole story to match your agenda. Jean pulled sublime out of Beast. Not a great feat. Jean went inside the crystal and reached through time and nudged Cyclops. That's her feats. She didn't do anything else but those 2 things.

Are you seriously going to ignore the fact that she stated on panel that she amputated the future because of the severity of the bacterial infection, with said feat then being explicity verified in the handbook?

Are you going to ignore the fact that the Phoenix Consciousness told us explicitly that Jean had total telekinetic control of the universe's atoms only for the handbook to update Jean's abilities to state she can now have tototal telekinetic control of atomic structures on a universal scale?

The combination of explicit on panel statements coupled with corroborating handbook statements makes it canon.

In opposition there is your opposing opinion alone. Not good enough. Youve lost. Have some integrity ✅

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
An unhinged ad-hominem rant in lieu of an argument.

The actual argument was over the merit of handbook citations.

You kept harping about handbook citations in contravention of the most basic KMC rules.

When I called you out on it, you attempted to pretend that an exception could apply to this KMC rule in this instance by pretending all handbook entries were consistent on what happened during Here Comes Tomorrow.

I, for the dozen-eth time, posted the handbook entry disproving what you think happened during Here Comes Tomorrow. Which, on it's own by KMC standards, doesn't mean sh1t given it's a handbook entry. But it utterly defuses your categorical falsehood that every handbook entry supports your interpretation.

Then you decided to pretend that you haven't been utterly disproven on a notion that you introduced on your own self-declared standards.

It's like arguing with a flat-earther. It doesn't matter if I apply my own standards, or your standards, or even neutral standards. You're just going to sh1t up any thread discussion in an obvious attempt to obfuscate actual constructive discussion because nobody buys your crap. And it seems like you're just deluding yourself into thinking if you sh1t up enough threads, some random 1st-time visitor will accept your interpretation.

But don't think, for one instant, that I am accusing you of unself-awareness or self-delusion. You know what you're doing. You know that I know what you're doing. You know that KMC knows what you're doing.

Originally posted by ODG
In lieu of an argument? Any insults from me (justified or not), came after the actual conclusion of the argument. So don't pretend that I avoided debate with unflattering disparagement (accurate or not).

The actual argument was over the merit of handbook citations.

You kept harping about handbook citations in contravention of the most basic KMC rules.

When I called you out on it, you attempted to pretend that an exception could apply to this KMC rule in this instance by pretending all handbook entries were consistent on what happened during Here Comes Tomorrow.

I, for the dozen-eth time, posted the handbook entry disproving what you think happened during Here Comes Tomorrow. Which, on it's own by KMC standards, doesn't mean sh1t given it's a handbook entry. But it utterly defuses your categorical falsehood that every handbook entry supports your interpretation.

Then you decided to pretend that you haven't been utterly disproven on a notion that you introduced on your own self-declared standards.

It's like arguing with a flat-earther. It doesn't matter if I apply my own standards, or your standards, or even neutral standards. You're just going to sh1t up any thread discussion in an obvious attempt to obfuscate actual constructive discussion because nobody buys your crap. And it seems like you're just deluding yourself into thinking if you sh1t up enough threads, some random 1st-time visitor will accept your interpretation.

But don't think, for one instant, that I am accusing you of unself-awareness or self-delusion. You know what you're doing. You know that I know what you're doing. You know that KMC knows what you're doing.

A whole load of empty, nebulous, face saving bluster.

You thought you could coast on a 12 yr old argument and swiftly discovered the error of your ways cos i ate your ass up 😆

Not only did i highlight how your argument defies logic and a universally accepted understanding of the English language, how the handbooks do not contradict each other in the slightest, but also how they contradict your nonsensical take whilst doing nothing but endorsing mine:

https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=674091&pagenumber=14

Realising your stance has been debunked and deconstructed something fierce, you have swiftly shifted from attempting to counter my points to posting face saving, reality denying fluff like this ever since. 😮

You are not fit for purpose. You got washed. 😮‍💨

^ How adorably quaint that you’re reduced to impotent protestations of fake accomplishment.

I can’t even take credit for it. It’s basically all of KMC at this point.

It is rather pathetic that you can’t move on from Here Comes Tomorrow. Not like we’ve had nearly two decades worth of Phoenixforce storylines and feats to draw from. But then again, 19 years worth of current storylines don’t exactly support your mythologizing, after all.

How unsightly. kinda

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A whole load of empty, nebulous, face saving bluster.

You thought you could coast on a 12 yr old argument and swiftly discovered the error of your ways cos i ate your ass up 😆

Not only did i highlight how your argument defies logic and a universally accepted understanding of the English language, how the handbooks do not contradict each other in the slightest, but also how they contradict your nonsensical take whilst doing nothing but endorsing mine:

https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=674091&pagenumber=14

Realising your stance has been debunked and deconstructed something fierce, you have swiftly shifted from attempting to counter my points to posting face saving, reality denying fluff like this ever since. 😮

You are not fit for purpose. You got washed. 😮‍💨

"With what? Your saliva?" I lol'd

Me too 😆😆😆😆

Originally posted by ODG
^ How adorably quaint that you’re reduced to impotent protestations of fake accomplishment.

I can’t even take credit for it. It’s basically all of KMC at this point.

It is rather pathetic that you can’t move on from Here Comes Tomorrow. Not like we’ve had nearly two decades worth of Phoenixforce storylines and feats to draw from. But then again, 19 years worth of current storylines don’t exactly support your mythologizing, after all.

How unsightly. kinda

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Realising your stance has been debunked and deconstructed something fierce, you have swiftly shifted from attempting to counter my points to posting face saving, reality denying fluff like this ever since. 😮

😗

Keep proving me right. Its one of your strengths. 😆

Its over at this point bro. 😉

We can go back and forth throwing insults all day long. But the reason we're here is to debate and on that front, when it came down to it, you very publicly came up short.

I smashed your argument beyond any shadow of a doubt and as we're seeing, all thats left for you now is to duck and dive from the debate at hand, deny reality and post this self-congratulating disingenuity.

Given how much you clearly think of yourself, to have reduced you to this position pleases me 🙂

Originally posted by Diesldude
Lmao dude… I see words and phrases like eating odg’s ass, smoking, washing..
So are you saying you ate odg’s smokin ass ? And washed it? With what? Your sliva? Dude.. the whole point of flinging insults is to abuse the other person not yourself.

Yes. With my saliva 🙄 😆

Originally posted by Smurph
"With what? Your saliva?" I lol'd

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

You pop up when you feel youve got back-up active in the thread.

When you get handled, you scarper. fear

Until next time. 😮‍💨

Hey Harley wavey 😆

11 days later and still standing strong. boxing

ODG.......whenever youre ready 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
ODG just stop. 😆 Stop ✅

Handbooks are completely admissible as a source of evidence here as long as they dont contradict whats explicitly depicted on panel. Handbooks are especially useful in helping us readers know the company line on ambiguous scenes, which is the case here.

As i've laid out comprehensively, your interpretation is neither supported by the comic book scene or by the handbooks.

Whilst mine is supported by both. That should tell you something.

The Here Comes Tomorrow reality profile from the Alternate Universes Handbook states that Jean Grey disinfected reality by extracting Sublime from Beasts body:

https://imgur.com/cksLbQQ

Which is exactly what I said as thats exactly what we saw in the comic:

https://imgur.com/gmYWUFf

The M'kraan crystal profile focuses on another instance within that scene and states that Jean severed the actual future reality 15104 off of the multiverse:

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

and thats exactly what Jean states she did in the comic and as she says that we see said future fade away from the background:

https://imgur.com/OKI2ENX

So neither handbook contradicts what's stated or depicted on panel or each other. They just focus on different things as ones a profile covering all the key narrative elements of the Here Comes Tomorrow reality, whilst the other is the profile of the multiversal M'kraan crystal so the fact that a reality is severed from the multiverse would be more relevant to said profile than the in depth coverage of what happened in one of the many realities its associated with.

What they do contradict however is just YOUR interpretation of what happened on panel. Yet despite the fact that the scene is ambiguous and can be interpreted in a different way to what you have, a way that reconciles both comic and handbook accounts, you arrogantly insist that you're right whilst disingenuously trying to dismiss an official source as evidence when it complements the comic book account and gives us readers guidance on how to interpret the comic. Shame on you ✅

In the above scene Jean states that because of the severity of the bacterial infection she had to resort to amputation.

The Phoenix replies with "Phoenix disinfection successful." Which it was as Jean has extracted Sublime from reality which was her designated task as was firmly established in the New X-men series:

https://imgur.com/rmWM4aQ

Based solely on that happenstance, (Phoenix confirming the mission was a success) you have conflated the terms disinfection and amputate despite the fact that they mean two entirely different things not only within the English language but also within medical science. Your interpretation literally does not make sense given what's actually stated. 😬

As i touched on in my last post, disinfection is related to removing or reducing infection levels on a body.

Amputation is related to removing a body part to save a patients life and can be done where other treatments such as disinfection alone are insufficient to save a patients life.

Jean disinfects reality by removing the bacteria and then seeing how bad the damage was following the infection decides to amputate that future off the multiverse.

Where you got further confused is where when holding Sublime Jean asks the Phoenix Consciousness "is this the future?" i.e is Sublime the inevitable fate of reality:

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

The Phoenix Force basically says no, "This is now." i.e this is just how things currently stand.

This leads Jean to get upset and say her friends dont deserve to face that. The Phoenix then comforts Jean saying its not the end yet and directs her to the White Hot Room saying she can grow a better future there.

We later see Jean go to the White Hot Room, materialize 616 and then alter the event that resulted in Here Comes Tomorrow, thus providing her friends with a better future.

https://imgur.com/pfqD6pU

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

You are 100% wrong. Your interpretation completely contradicts the definition of the words used in the scene, but also doesnt make sense from a narrative perspective.

If Jean didnt amputate the actual future and was referring to Sublime when she said she had to amputate the future, why would Jean subsequently ask the Phoenix if Sublime was the future after just stating she amputated the future? 😕 She got dementia? LMAO

Any sensible person could see she was referring to two separate things. 1) the actual future reality and 2) destiny i.e the fate for reality otherwise it makes absolutely zero sense.

If in both instances ("i had to amputate the future" and "is this the future"😉 she was talking about Sublime then when the Phoenix Force urged her to go and grow a new future, then by your interpretation we wouldve seen Jean go to the M'kraan crystal put on her lab coat and grow a different strain of bacterial colony! 😆

Did we see that? 😱

No. Following Jean being directed to grow a new future, the new future we saw her grow was the actual timeline, thus [b]CONCLUSIVELY rubbishing your interpretation on panel. The handbooks verifying my account aren't even needed, theyre just extra salt in the wound.

Your interpretation is nonsensical, contradictory and disingenuous.

This is all about pride and fragile ego.

Its ok to admit when GS is right 😮‍💨 [/B]

Similarly ignored in favour of your face saving, self aggrandizing:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As always.....wrong! 😱

In that at least you have consistency. 😆

The Alternate Universes handbook stated that extracting Sublime was what disinfected reality.

However neither the Handbook, nor the comic equated the disinfection of reality, to the amputation Jean referred to. That is yet another in a long line of misinterpretations on your part, one that contradicts the definitions of the terms in question. ✅

Disinfection and amputation by definition are two entirely separate medical procedures and as such the terms are not synonymous in any way, shape or form.

"Disinfection describes a process that eliminates many or all pathogenic microorganisms, except bacterial spores, on inanimate objects."

https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontro...iz
ation.

"Disinfection is a process that reduces the number of microorganisms to a level at which they do not present a risk to patients or clients."

https://www.niinfectioncontrolmanua...ng-disinfection

To paraphrase, to disinfect is to remove or reduce microorganisms to the point where they are no longer a threat to a patient. So that is in line with what was depicted.

Now lets look at the term amputation:

"Amputation is the loss or removal of a body part such as a finger, toe, hand, foot, arm or leg. "

and now lets look at the circumstances under which amputation might be necessary:

"If tissue destruction, infection or disease affects a body part in a way that makes it impossible to repair or endangers the person’s life, that part may be removed by surgical amputation."

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...r /> mputation.

Amputation may be required if despite other treatments to deal with the affliction, the patient has been dealt too much damage to recover from:

"Serious infection that does not get better with antibiotics or other treatment"

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides...tion-amputation

So an amputation is sometimes medically necessary even following a disinfection, if the damage caused by the infection will not heal despite the offending microorganisms being removed/brought under control thereby endangering the patients life. Hmmm 😖hifty:

Sublime was a sentient bacterial colony deadset on stalling evolution so it could remain the dominant life form on the planet:

https://imgur.com/HH3aehO

Perpetuating evolution is the Phoenixes MO.

The only reason the Phoenix manifested within Jean, was to address the threat of Sublime. The Phoenix Force told this to the Professor earlier within the story arc:

https://imgur.com/rmWM4aQ

Anything else was besides the point.

So when Jean extracted Sublime from reality, she disinfected it:

https://imgur.com/gmYWUFf

As confirmed by the handbook:

https://imgur.com/cksLbQQ

However as Jean stated in the scene the colony had gone rogue meaning she had to go beyond just the planned disinfection (the extraction of Sublime) and had to amputate the whole future off of reality.

That extra step was besides the point, as far as the Phoenix was concerned she had performed her designated task of disinfecting reality by removing Sublime. Hence its reply of "Phoenix disinfection successful."

This point was verified officially where the Handbooks clarified Jeans comments stating that the future she amputated was the actual reality 151104:

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

Thus entirely rubbishing your nonsensical and unsupported interpretation.

And this is your problem. Youre just not as smart as you think you are and subsequently get eaten up despite your best efforts. Thats why 11 yrs later youre out here acting like a woman scorned and giving pettiness and passive aggression with each post. Slow your roll Petty Patty. Its not that deep 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The correctly working links in order:

https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection/

https://www.niinfectioncontrolmanual.net/cleaning-disinfection

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/amputation

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/definition-amputation

🙂

😉

Unable to counter, you resort to ad hominem attacks, attempts at diminishing my credibility and all the cowardly, underhand strategies you can think of to avoid just admitting the evidence doesn't support you and you're stumped 😬

Keep showing your colours bro. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hey Harley wavey 😆

All those walls of text you copy and paste from decades old posts, and you can only pick on my typo which was most likely autocorrected to a name from my address book? Still I don’t pretend to be a English Major or a professor. I am a coder, a very successful one. You can pick on my spelling, but you can’t counter my wit. I’m diesldude and I have fingers that are too big for a phone and your anus too. So have fun at my typos and spelling mistakes because all the conversation you participate in soar at an altitude higher than your level of comprehension. thumb up just some friendly advise. Oops typo again.