Raven vs Dark Phoenix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Any verification of this amp? Looking at the comic it doesn't state that she was amping them. It does show the 7 Deadly Sins entangled in her energy signature which could also be interpreted as them being under her sway.

Fully powered Raven is just too much for any Phoenix. Damn, I forgot how powerful she was.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Fully powered Raven is just too much for any Phoenix. Damn, I forgot how powerful she was.

Originally posted by Juntai
In none of the other scenes is she hitting them with energy like that. She didn't need to hold them under sway. She certainly didn't when she brought them to Fate's tower to fight a room of gods, lords of order and other top end heros.
She had to sneak attack SMP1M, and amp the group of magic beings to put him down long enough to win.

Thats supposition.

Nowhere in the scene is it stated that she was amping them. Thats just how youve chosen to interpret that particular panel. Theres nothing conclusive in said scene to verify said interpretation so this "amping" isnt something you can assert, despite how convinced you might be that the ambiguous art shows what you think it does.

Not being arsey. It just is what it is. Have to hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to quality of evidence, otherwise its just a free for all where we're accepting purple prose and/or wishy washy artistic expression as a substitute for the explicit and conclusive.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Fully powered Raven is just too much for any Phoenix. Damn, I forgot how powerful she was.

Based on what? What did she do to support that statement? She was consuming the dimensions that make up the DC universe.

I hope thats not it or she stands no chance against the best Phoenix hosts and would get absolutely annihilated by the Phoenix Force itself 😕

Originally posted by Juntai
Even without the amps she got, she's a potential universe conqueror or more. She's much stronger than Trigon is, but holds the darkness at bay with her Rachel personality. Her every single moment of her life is a struggle with not trying to kill everyone around her and destroy everything all the time. She said that darkness consuming her is always closer than her next breath is.

Even with the amps, what did she actually do? Potential and inference do not cut it.

Apart from consuming part of the DC universe, what did she do that was so uber? 😕

List the feats within Future State: Suicide Squad 1 and 2, that i must be overlooking given the hype?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Based on what? What did she do to support that statement? She was consuming the dimensions that make up the DC universe.

I hope thats not it or she stands no chance against the best Phoenix hosts and would get absolutely annihilated by the Phoenix Force itself 😕

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats supposition.

Nowhere in the scene is it stated that she was amping them. Thats just how youve chosen to interpret that particular panel. Theres nothing conclusive in said scene to verify said interpretation so this "amping" isnt something you can assert, despite how convinced you might be that the ambiguous art shows what you think it does.

Not being arsey. It just is what it is. Have to hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to quality of evidence, otherwise its just a free for all where we're accepting purple prose and/or wishy washy artistic expression as a substitute for the explicit and conclusive.

Originally posted by Juntai
😆

I hope this smiley isnt a substitute for feats? 😕

Originally posted by Juntai
It took all of them. Unkindness was helping, and so were the LOC.
https://imgur.com/gallery/9kcBNM5

Cool. So this shows what the writers intentions were.

But that doesnt do the Unkindness any favours, it makes her look less effective and less uber, if she required the combined abilities of the Lords of Chaos and the 7 Deadly Sins to take down Superman Prime.

If she washed him solo, then that would add some validity to this "top tier Unkindness" narrative that is otherwise unsupported on panel. 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Even with the amps, what did she actually do? Potential and inference do not cut it.

Apart from consuming part of the DC universe, what did she do that was so uber? 😕

List the feats within Future State: Suicide Squad 1 and 2, that i must be overlooking given the hype?

The fact that she could walk into Fates tower and flick her wrist and kill a room of people that can destroy universes/multiverses is all anyone needs to know that Dark Pheonix doesn't stand a chance by feats.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Cool. So this shows what the writers intentions were.

But that doesnt do the Unkindness any favours, it makes her look less effective and less uber, if she required the combined abilities of the Lords of Chaos and the 7 Deadly Sins to take down Superman Prime.

If she washed him solo, then that would add some validity to this "top tier Unkindness" narrative that is otherwise unsupported on panel. 😬

Its a testament to how powerful Superman Prime is, not the other way.

Superman is the physical manifestation of hope. He is the meta-verses antibody.
It was a metaphorical signal, when he fell, hope was lost.

Originally posted by Juntai
Oh, I've already said what she did. She defeated everyone and everything. She was the unavoidable, unstoppable end of all creation, and not just the universes of the multiverse, but all the higher realms as well that exist outside of it.

This isnt true though. This was achieved in alliance with her minions, the LOC and the 7 Deadly Sins. On top of that a lot of the destruction she caused in the universe was off panel so her contribution to it in comparison to her minions is unquantifiable.

Did the full destruction actually happen? If not then it was neither unavoidable or unstoppable.

Originally posted by Juntai
The fact that she could walk into Fates tower and flick her wrist and kill a room of people that can destroy universes/multiverses is all anyone needs to know that Dark Pheonix doesn't stand a chance by feats.

She was allowed entry into Fates tower by the Resurrection Man, plus it was her minions who took out most of the Quintessence. She was only responsible for taking out the Wizard. An alternate future Wizard at that with unquantifiable power levels and next to no feats. Same goes for the rest off this alternate future Quintessence which was composed of different members to the main continuity, again all with unquantifiable power levels due to a distinct lack of feats.

So when it comes down to it, all the Unkindness has to her name is:

destroying some dimensions that make up part of this alternate future DC universe off panel under unknown circumstances

Combining powers with LOC and the 7 Deadly Sins to take out Superman Prime

Killing an alternate future Wizard of zero notable feats.

😬

Originally posted by Juntai
😆

Its a testament to how powerful Superman Prime is, not the other way.

Superman is the physical manifestation of hope. He is the meta-verses antibody.
It was a metaphorical signal, when he fell, hope was lost.

Exactly. Which is why i said its not the Unkindness that was done any favours through that incident.

Why you laughing? We're good right? 👆

Im hoping youre not one of those who gets upset and defensive during debate? I cant remember, its been ages since we've done this 😄

Even Raven before all the amps of this story is probably DC's closest analog to Phoenix. Her Soul Self is the nexus to every soul in existence as well as a nexus to all realities. In her Soul Self is like a version of the white hot room where she impacts the multiverse. She's warped the multiverse. She could snuff out every star. She's even gone from Dark to White versions and back again a few times. Etc. They would probably understand eachother and be homies. 😄

Even in her current form went toe to toe with Spectre until they could re-merge him with Corrigan. Even the Lords of Order and Chaos could barely slow down Spectre, and he and many of them can end multiverses. The Lords of Order and the Quintessence and Spectre ran and hid from her to try to figure out anything they could do.

The Unkindness is her at her most powerful and growing stronger over many
centuries and then add the 4 Horsemen, who are already as strong as any being in existence, then amplified within her, and the power of Shazam, and all the magical artifacts and dimensional/multiverse/timeline absorption she did.

She was way beyond her normal self.
Its very clear what the story was telling us.
And the writer himself confirms and tells us her place in the hierarchy.

Anyways, I think you'd really like Raven.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Did the full destruction actually happen? If not then it was neither unavoidable or unstoppable.

Originally posted by Juntai
Even Raven before all the amps of this story is probably DC's closest analog to Phoenix. Her Soul Self is the nexus to every soul in existence as well as a nexus to all realities. In her Soul Self is like a version of the white hot room where she impacts the multiverse. She's warped the multiverse. She could snuff out every star. She's even gone from Dark to White versions and back again a few times. Etc. They would probably understand eachother and be homies. 😄

Even in her current form went toe to toe with Spectre until they could re-merge him with Corrigan. Even the Lords of Order and Chaos could barely slow down Spectre, and he and many of them can end multiverses. The Lords of Order and the Quintessence and Spectre ran and hid from her to try to figure out anything they could do.

The Unkindness is her at her most powerful and growing stronger over many
centuries and then add the 4 Horsemen, who are already as strong as any being in existence, then amplified within her, and the power of Shazam, and all the magical artifacts and dimensional/multiverse/timeline absorption she did.

She was way beyond her normal self.
Its very clear what the story was telling us.
And the writer himself confirms and tells us her place in the hierarchy.

Anyways, I think you'd really like Raven.

I do like Raven. Ive been an on and off Teen Titans reader for years. I just think that the feats of the Unkindness arent particularly noteworthy amongst the top tier cosmics from both Marvel and DC.

Gradually destroying parts of the universe with the help of minions contributing an unquantified amount to this process is great, but not a colossal feat. Referring to feats of standard Raven, doesn't counter or make up for the lack of feats possessed by the Unkindness. The fact that you have to refer to other versions of Raven to convince how powerful the Unkindness is just speaks for her lack of feats. Im not saying she isnt powerful, im just saying how powerful she truly was is unquantifiable because what she did do dring her brief panel time just wasnt that great. Thats a reality you just gotta accept.

Top Phoenix hosts erase realities casually with a thought. Its light work to them. Unkindness has not demonstrated anywhere near that tier of power.

The White Hot Room is both the origin and endpoint of all Marvel creation (The 1st Firmament and Multi-Eternity) Raven is derivative of creation, creation is derivative of the Phoenix, the White Hot Room is the the higher dimensional plane where the the Phoenix is made to be TOAAs creation power. Ravens soul self is not its DC analogue. She is a derivative being numerous tiers below the Phoenix Force and not even on par with its top hosts going by feats.

The closest analogue to the true Phoenix Force in DC would be the Source. The Monitor Sphere would be the Beyond Realm where the Beyonders dwell as the engineers and protectors of creation and the Overvoid would be the White Hot Room.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yes. All except Fates tower and a couple pieces of land from a few places they were able to save after she destroyed them and hid them before she could absorb them. The plan was to wait it out and rebuild. She had otherwise absorbed the multiverse and higher dimensions and was clearly devouring hypertime as we saw peoples whole timeline cease to exist.

It didnt say she had destroyed all of the universe. It stated she had focused on the great places of power 1st and that the rest of the universe was a work in progress.

Going from place to place gradually consuming reality is a great feat but its not as uber as youre asserting. If she was wiping out dimensions casually in an instant then that would place her level with a top Phoenix host. Instead it was a drawn out gradual process that was supported by her multitude of minions. Its just not the same tier.

The Unkindness unfortunately, just doesnt have the spread of feats to quantify just how powerful she was and what isnt a help is her reliance on minions to aid in the destruction. Given dimensions were destroyed off panel you cant quantify her contribution(versus her minions), how it was achieved, how long it took to achieve it and how easy it was for her.

In contrast you have Phoenix hosts destroying an entire reality casually with a thought and hosts altering the realities of the entire multiverse simultaneously. Not a long trawl through dimensions with backup from a dozen minions.

I completely disagree with almost everything you just wrote. From both your summary of the Phoenix to your summary of the story, which doesn’t align with what happened or what the writer intended, which has already been posted.

Also, Dark Phoenix is a rather specific version of the character. What do see as her best feat in that incarnation?

Originally posted by Juntai
I completely disagree with almost everything you just wrote. From both your summary of the Phoenix to your summary of the story, which doesn’t align with what happened or what the writer intended, which has already been posted.

You can disagree, thats your prerogative, but without any contrary conclusive evidence, it is what it is.

Unkindness has a distinct lack of feats. What she did do was cool, but not top tier. Writers can state all they want after the fact, but unless it made it into an official publication it doesnt matter a dime. Whats printed, is whats canon and what we go by in terms of versus match ups.

As for my summary of the Phoenix, i only state what i can back up. Which part did you disagree with specifically?

Originally posted by Juntai
Also, Dark Phoenix is a rather specific version of the character. What do see as her best feat in that incarnation?

Dark Phoenix is just a state of mind for a Phoenix host whereby it acts on its destructive impulses and is lead by negative emotions. Jean was Dark Phoenix multiple times throughout 2005's Phoenix Endsong. She cycled through all Phoenix colours in the space of a few pages in that title as her state of mind shifted.

There is no power difference, just a difference in head space. So any of Jeans Phoenix feats could be referenced, except she would have the propensity to be ruthless with it due to this being her Dark Phoenix state.