Raven vs Dark Phoenix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont patronise me.

Attempt to out debate me, but do so respectfully. We're OG's here, do better. 😉

As a standalone sentence taken completely out of context you'd be forgiven for interpreting as such. However when said sentence is immediately preceded by the Wizard proposing a way for Adam to save the universe by saying one word...."Shazam." theres no support or excuse for your interpretation.

https://imgur.com/5E0Y7Xj

https://imgur.com/IjptH0x

To paraphrase it states it all began with the word (Shazam) and now it ends with that same word. Your interpretation doesn't reconcile the fact that the 2nd part of the sentence ("that word"😉 explains what word is meant in the 1st part of the sentence.

My interpretation is supported by the scene immediately before (the focus on the word "Shazam" to save the universe) and in the main scene we're talking about where its stated that the word in question is one the Wizards power is tied to. Which we all know to be the word Shazam.

Your perspective is tenuous at best and entirely unsupported by the context or art of the comic.

“As in beginning, there was the word.”

What beginning?

See how it doesn’t make sense from the start?

There is nothing beginning here.

It’s referencing the creation story/Bible.

So let’s restart.

“As in the beginning, there was the word.”

Period. Separation of idea from one to the next.

“And now,” — and now not just a separation of statement now, but a separation of time/place.

“The last of an ancient wizards power, wrapped up in that word” — referring to him saying Shazam in the previous panels, here at the end of all things, with the last magic in creation, in direct line comparison to the original statement.

It’s incredibly obvious how wrong you are.

Well, yeah. Judged by the scans I can see and the discussion in this thread, I tend to think the writer used "word" to refer two different things here

It's like, let's say
Country X successfully created an artificial sun and one of the scientists said in an article:
"In the beginning, there was the sun that gave humans warmth(talking about the natural sun).
And now, we created that sun(the artificial one, which is indicated by a different time frame that separated from the previous one) to lead humans into a new age"
It essentially is comparing and drawing parallels of two similar things. The most obvious indication I think is the two different time frames(a "beginning", and a "now"😉

Though, I personally think it doesn't necessarily transfer to they're comparable in terms of powers. It can be referring the parallels of one presenting the beginning and the other one presenting the end.

Originally posted by Juntai
You’re very blatantly wrong here. Your interpretation isn’t supported anywhere.

“As in beginning, there was the word.”

What beginning?

See how it doesn’t make sense from the start?

There is nothing beginning here.

It’s referencing the creation story/Bible.

So let’s restart.

“As in the beginning, there was the word.”

Period. Separation of idea from one to the next.

“And now,” — and now not just a separation of statement now, but a separation of time/place.

“The last of an ancient wizards power, wrapped up in that word” — referring to him saying Shazam in the previous panels, here at the end of all things, with the last magic in creation, in direct line comparison to the original statement.

It’s incredibly obvious how wrong you are.

Of course it makes sense. Shazam was the beginning of this journey for Teth Adam and that same word of power is what hes left with at realitys end.

Your interpretation is not supported on panel by context, or artistically. My interpretation is heavily supported.

The scene is preceded by the word Shazam (after said word is proposed as the way to save the universe) it then says Shazam was the beginning and now at the end "THAT word" is wrapped up in the last of the Wizards power to send Teth to the past in order to save things. All in line with the Wizards last words.

You wont accept this as youre trying to embellish a simple time travel spell into something substantially greater so you can say look how powerful the Wizard is and yet Unkindness destroyed him! Heres my feat for you!! 😂 Its transparent.

Unfortunately, youre just not supported by anything conclusive. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this debate over what "the word" means.

Now lets get back to you specifying some uber solo feats of the Unkindness? Anything? 😕

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, yeah. Judged by the scans I can see and the discussion in this thread, I tend to think the writer used "word" to refer two different things here

It's like, let's say
Country X successfully created an artificial sun and one of the scientists said in an article:
"In the beginning, there was the sun that gave humans warmth(talking about the natural sun).
And now, we created that sun(the artificial one, which is indicated by a different time frame that separated from the previous one) to lead humans into a new age"
It essentially is comparing and drawing parallels of two similar things. The most obvious indication I think is the two different time frames(a "beginning", and a "now"😉

Though, I personally think it doesn't necessarily transfer to they're comparable in terms of powers. It can be referring the parallels of one presenting the beginning and the other one presenting the end.

This is a reasonable take. 👆

Whilst i still believe given the context provided by the comic and the subsequent clarification of what word was being talked about in the 1st sentence ("wrapped up in that word,"😉 you logically and objectively recognised that regardless, it would say nothing of power anyway. 🙂

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, yeah. Judged by the scans I can see and the discussion in this thread, I tend to think the writer used "word" to refer two different things here

It's like, let's say
Country X successfully created an artificial sun and one of the scientists said in an article:
"In the beginning, there was the sun that gave humans warmth(talking about the natural sun).
And now, we created that sun(the artificial one, which is indicated by a different time frame that separated from the previous one) to lead humans into a new age"
It essentially is comparing and drawing parallels of two similar things. The most obvious indication I think is the two different time frames(a "beginning", and a "now"😉

Though, I personally think it doesn't necessarily transfer to they're comparable in terms of powers. It can be referring the parallels of one presenting the beginning and the other one presenting the end.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Now let’s get back to you specifying some uber solo feats of the Unkindness? Anything? 😕

Absorbing all of existence > eating a star.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What you've done is see the phrase "As in the beginning there was the word" and its like your brain shut off after that sentence and youve run off with an interpretation stubbornly clinging on to it ignoring the context given by the comic to explain that sentence 😬

😂

Its a common theme for the comic writers to take inspiration from Bible.

Immediately before the comic says "In the beginning there was the word" the comic shows us what word it was talking about:

https://imgur.com/IjptH0x

"SHAZAM" - That is the word being referred to. That is the word focused on and stated immediately before the sentence in question.

The comic then doubles down on its confirmation of what word it was talking about:

"And now the last of an ancient wizards power wrapped up in [B]THAT word send Teth Adam hurtling through the multiverse."

https://imgur.com/xhA6UK9

The comic explains that the word being talked about is one that the Wizards power is wrapped in. What word in DC lore is the Wizards power connected to? 😖hifty:

https://imgur.com/5E0Y7Xj

"SHAZAM" 🙂

As the wizard lays dying, he tells Black Adam to say his name. The name that calls on his power according to DC lore. As Black Adam says "Shazam" he is sent hurtling through the multiverse.

Something your own evidence confirms:

https://imgur.com/OW4Xg87

"With his last ounce of strength he guided me here..."

There is zero reference to the Big Bang.

Except the whole thing "In the beginning there was the word".

You know, from Genesis? I'm not even a Christian and I know lol.

You completely ignored the explicit context given immediately before the scene where the Wizard tells Teth to say the word "Shazam," the context in the scene where it states that the word in question is the one the Wizards power is tied to, which we all know is" Shazam." The same word stated IMMEDIATELY before the scene we're pointlessly debating over 😆

As usual, you arrived at the worst possible conclusion. Bravo.

We debated like 2 yrs ago. Let the grudge go and start afresh and be civil. Theres no need to let this descend into childish name calling. That is a crutch for those who cant debate. Dont be that guy.

Grudge? I don't begrudge someone as childish as you.

Back on topic, you simply misinterpreted. It happens.

You saw the phrase "as in the beginning there was the word" and immediately locked into an interpretation, one that isnt supported in the scene, before the scene or after the scene. What is supported and explicitly confirmed is the word Shazam calls on the Wizards power. The Wizard tells Shazam to say it, he is then sent back through time with scene saying "as in the beginning there was the word....."And now the last of an ancient wizards power wrapped up in THAT word send Teth Adam hurtling through the multiverse."

This is over. 😬 [/B]

😂

You wish.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Im not denying she destroyed most of creation, just saying its circumstances and her contribution are unquantifiable.

"Great and terrible Unkindness. A being of pure malevolence which ravaged the all of time and tide, insatiably consuming every thread of existence."

The comic and it's follow up explicitly state that it was unkindness alone which consumed entire existence but our resident village clown thinks otherwise.

When you can read it, get back to me.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No. The OP simply said Dark Phoenix Jean. Not Jean in Uncanny X-men issue x to y. Jean has gone Dark Phoenix multiple times within comics and its canon that Dark Phoenix is just a state of mind.

We don’t use World Breaker Hulk or a Toba Hulk when someone says Joe Fixit is the Hulk in the thread, even though it’s still the same guy..

Also Phoenix and Starbrand reset timeline of 615 Earths. That's it, not entire multiverse.

Originally posted by Juntai
Absolutely.
I never said it was big bang power.
But it was very obviously referencing the creation event and drawing that comparison of beginning and end and word.
It did however disrupt the Omni verse, which is substantial any way you shake it.

It didnt disrupt the omniverse entire. Lets not embellish. 😉

Whats stated was it disrupted the fabric of the omniverse. A speeding boat can be said to be tearing up the ocean for example.

Just meant that the make up of space time was getting disrupted with his journey to the past.

It was a time travel spell. 😕

Originally posted by Juntai
Now that you see all the ways you were wrong about how English works, we can continue here:

Absorbing all of existence > eating a star.

You havent proven me wrong on a single thing. You presented an alternative interpretation to an ambiguous statement. You might be convinced your interpretation is correct but without a supporting explicit statement you cant assert that. So ive taken the high road and said we'll agree to disagre, lets get back to the main topic 🙂

Meanwhile i have debunked your claims that Unkindness destroyed all planes of reality at once and highlighted that she doesnt have a single quantifiable solo feat of merit. 😬

Unkindness gradually destroying creation plane by plane is not a multiversal feat. That denotes a universal capacity of destruction with a trail of destruction that eventually covered all of DC.

Furthermore it was done with the aid of her minions.

Any verifiable solo feats beyond killing the Wizard? 😕

Originally posted by abhilegend
😂

Its a common theme for the comic writers to take inspiration from Bible.

Except the whole thing "In the beginning there was the word".

You know, from Genesis? I'm not even a Christian and I know lol.

As usual, you arrived at the worst possible conclusion. Bravo.

Grudge? I don't begrudge someone as childish as you.

😂

You wish.

Victimhood at its finest. Im sorry i hurt your feelings 2 years ago and youre still in recovery. 😕

With regards to your points, ive explained my interpretation and its supported by the narrative and comic art. Agree or disagree its irrelevant. Neither interpretation makes the Wizard any more powerful than what he is, therefore your attempt to indirectly amp the Unkindness is a certified fail. 😬

Originally posted by Juntai
It’s referencing a specific version and era of the character. You don’t get to pick and choose. It’s never worked like that on the forum, ever. We don’t use current Superman feats when someone says Byrne Superman or DOS Superman.

The difference being Byrne Superman would denote a specific Superman solely in his appearances under that writer.

Dark Phoenix Jean, is just Jean Grey gone Dark Phoenix which is something she has done as recently as 2005s Endsong. Sorry.

Originally posted by Juntai
We don’t use World Breaker Hulk or a Toba Hulk when someone says Joe Fixit is the Hulk in the thread, even though it’s still the same guy..

Said different Hulks have entirely different abilities. Your analogy fails. Dark Phoenix Jean Grey has been seen on multiple occasions in continuity and does not have unique abilities. It is just a different mindset and propensity.

If the OP had said Dark Phoenix only as she appeared in Uncanny X-men in the 1980s then that'd be a different story and then the feat-free Unkindness would actually stand a chance 😬

Just because you can’t understand the accelerated timeline as she absorbed more and more and finally reached Vanishing point.

So, yes, she started out place by place, but then in between panels you failed to acknowledge that Fates tower that outside of reality was the final place.

It was devouring the planet they were on, the time travel brought the beetle, they used the scarab and opened a door and all of reality was already lost.

It’s about reading.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also Phoenix and Starbrand reset timeline of 615 Earths. That's it, not entire multiverse.

Jason Aarons run retconned the multiverse to be composed of 616 dimensions as a nod to the main reality being called 616.

Together Starbrand and Lady Phoenix who was exhausted after a long battle, then warped reality across the entire multiverse. All those realities simultaneously.

Thats a verified feat far greater than the Unkindness going from single dimension to single dimension causing havoc:

https://imgur.com/L9IMuIz

Lady Phoenix is just one single host, that the true Phoenix Force empowers across the multiverse. Its a good thing this thread isnt Raven vs the true Phoenix. it'd be a wipeout 🙁

Originally posted by Juntai
Just because you can’t understand the accelerated timeline as she absorbed more and more and finally reached Vanishing point.

So, yes, she started out place by place, but then in between panels you failed to acknowledge that Fates tower that outside of reality was the final place.

It was devouring the planet they were on, the time travel brought the beetle, they used the scarab and opened a door and all of reality was already lost.

It’s about reading.

Its about bringing conclusive evidence to the table and not trying to embellish the character through inference and inconclusive, poorly supported interpretation.

Whats stated explicitly is she went from plane to plane devouring the most powerful parts of dimensions.

All the rest of your post is conjecture. Disagree? Then share a scan stating your point explicitly or keep it moving 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its about bringing conclusive evidence to the table and not trying to embellish the character through inference and inconclusive, poorly supported interpretation.

Whats stated explicitly is she went from plane to plane devouring the most powerful parts of dimensions.

All the rest of your post is conjecture. Disagree? Then share a scan stating your point explicitly or keep it moving 😬

Now let’s set up that scene, right before the scene at the tower they were on Khandaq and Raven was devouring the planet. A time traveler shows up with the scarab and says she just took Vanishing Point, the end of time. They use the scarab with the magic word and open a door, and boom, the whole multiverse and everything outside of it is already gone as they arrive at Fates tower. Magic is the only thing protecting these peoples from timeline erasure we’re told. Otherwise, it’s all gone.