Bet Ray Bill vs Orion.

Originally posted by Stoic
Honest question. Do you believe that having an idea is strong enough to overturn the rest of the events that took place in that arc? Orion was clearly far less powerful than the Golem. How then could he have this prolonged battle against it when he was near wrecked by one assault?

Orion went toe to toe with the golem and it destroyed the solar system. That's the fact.

Originally posted by abhilegend
But we do have an idea how the fight went. Just because you're in denial doesn't mean everyone is.

Orion was clearly running away and trying to hide in planets after getting badly hurt and the Golem busted the solar system to beat him up

Which cannot be denied by on panel evidence

Because we didn't see the damn fight

Originally posted by Bentley
Orion was clearly running away and trying to hide in planets after getting badly hurt and the Golem busted the solar system to beat him up

Which cannot be denied by on panel evidence

Because we didn't see the damn fight

this is exactly what happened. the clearly described and beautifully portrayed battle scene between the golem and orion supports this completely. 👆

Originally posted by Bentley
Orion was clearly running away and trying to hide in planets after getting badly hurt and the Golem busted the solar system to beat him up

Which cannot be denied by on panel evidence

Because we didn't see the damn fight

Originally posted by leonidas
this is exactly what happened. the clearly described and beautifully portrayed battle scene between the golem and orion supports this completely. 👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Another way of putting it is - if we swapped Orion out for literally any other character in our tier list, where would we stop?

Let's say I replaced Orion with...a mid herald. Beta Ray Bill. Could we put BRB in that exact same battle, and it be 'realistic', or in Leo and stoic's terms, would it be believable for BRB to do?

How about...a Low Herald? Apollo.

High meta - could Ares be swapped in (as another battle hardened god of warrior type)?

Midmeta - could Beast Boy do it? Low Meta - Could 3D Man?

How about a street level character? If it is so mysteriously unquantfiable, if this happened in the pages of Batman, and Oracle fled from the battle in a Motherbox equipped wheelchair, would the character dialogue be believable? 'No, Barbara, last time you went up against the golem the solar system was destroyed, that was you, wasn't it???'

No, Alfred/Jarvis, that was you, wasn't it????

bill, yes, 100%. but why take the view. hulk, yes, 100%. thor. yes. black adam? yes. who cares how low. maybe lower if we assume the golem did most of the work. it's an exercise in speculation. that's the whole point behind my stance.

Originally posted by leonidas
bill, yes, 100%. but why take the view. hulk, yes, 100%. thor. yes. black adam? yes. who cares how low. maybe lower if we assume the golem did most of the work. it's an exercise in speculation. that's the whole point behind my stance.

Ah but I didn't ask about Hulk/Thor et Al.

Can 3D Man be swapped in (let's give him a little teleportation device as well)? If not, why not? I mean, you have no idea how the battle went down, right?

So we can easily place 3D Man in there and the results would be the same. Kyle would say ' no, 3D Man! Last time you went up against that golem, the solar system was destroyed! That was you, wasn't it???'

And we'd all slap our thighs and have a good chuckle. Just another day in the life of 3D Man, what a character!

lol always trying to be clever.... anyway we both know 3-d man can 100% be swapped in. dude is a beast. but your tricksiness falls flat because of the overall conclusion abhi and some others have suggested--they are implying that the feat puts orion well above other HERALDS. not above 3-d man. i mean abhi flat out claimed orion>>>>>>hal. i simply don't accept the conclusion that based on this feat, orion>>>>>>>>>>>then all heralds. again, i don't see why this is such an out-there stance to take.

Except that Kyle’s speculative accusation ended in a question, because he was never actually there to witness the confrontation.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol always trying to be clever.... anyway we both know 3-d man can 100% be swapped in. dude is a beast. but your tricksiness falls flat because of the overall conclusion abhi and some others have suggested--they are implying that the feat puts orion well above other HERALDS. not above 3-d man. i mean abhi flat out claimed orion>>>>>>hal. i simply don't accept the conclusion that based on this feat, orion>>>>>>>>>>>then all heralds. again, i don't see why this is such an out-there stance to take.

Well it's all unquantifiable and we don't know what happened, right?

Alfred could be there. Aunt May. Jane Foster (in human form and dying from cancer). We just don't know!!!

I mean, ok, I can simplify the showing. What level of character can be in those panels? Assume they all get a teleportation device to get out when the going gets hot, like Orion.

And what are you basing this on? Seeing as it's unquantifiable and we don't know what happened, as per your words? You can move one other direction, up or down the tiers (or across).

Originally posted by leonidas
lol always trying to be clever.... anyway we both know 3-d man can 100% be swapped in. dude is a beast. but your tricksiness falls flat because of the overall conclusion abhi and some others have suggested--they are implying that the feat puts orion well above other HERALDS. not above 3-d man. i mean abhi flat out claimed orion>>>>>>hal. i simply don't accept the conclusion that based on this feat, orion>>>>>>>>>>>then all heralds. again, i don't see why this is such an out-there stance to take.

Exactly. They’ve been trying to make this into more than it is for months now.

Then perhaps you can answer my question, Stoic.

How low can I go down the tiers before you say woah, hey, I don't think XYZ can be there?

Penguin? Killer Croc? Condiment Man?

Beta Ray Bill would be right around the level that a character would need to be at in order to replicate the showing. Bruises and all.

Originally posted by Stoic
Beta Ray Bill would be right around the level that a character would need to be at in order to re-locate the showing. Bruises and all.

Based on what? It's unquantifiable, and isn't a 'feat'. Why can't Killer Croc with a teleport device and a pistol do the exact same?

Based on how well Bill did against similar threats of the past. If I took Bill out and replaced him against Asteroth, I’d get similar results. How? Orion survived a blast that wiped out a solar system. The blast was generated by the Nth Metal Golem according to what is presented in the book. Based on the damage that Bill was able to survive in his battle with both Asteroth, and Stardust, I could certainly see him surviving what Orion survived.

Killer Croc would die from that blast.

You grossly misunderstand my question.

I am not questioning why BRB can replicate it. I am asking how far down the tier list one must go before you say no, they can't replicate it.

And how are you arriving at this limit, when you are simultaneously saying it's unquantifiable and not a feat. If it is unquantifiable, and not a feat, then anyone can replicate it - even Croc with a teleporter and a pistol.

And I told you that you needn’t go below Beta Ray Bill. I didn’t misunderstand anything.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Another way of putting it is - if we swapped Orion out for literally any other character in our tier list, where would we stop?

Let's say I replaced Orion with...a mid herald. Beta Ray Bill. Could we put BRB in that exact same battle, and it be 'realistic', or in Leo and stoic's terms, would it be believable for BRB to do?

Originally posted by leonidas
bill, yes, 100%. but why take the view. hulk, yes, 100%. thor. yes. black adam? yes. who cares how low. maybe lower if we assume the golem did most of the work. it's an exercise in speculation. that's the whole point behind my stance.

That's just sidestepping the question ,like Leo did.

If it is unquantifiable, then anyone can do it. We don't know what mysteriously happened in that fight, so you cannot say that Croc or Penguin can't replicate it.

Which is stupid, but that is how your arguments pan out. You are simply arguing and clinging to an outdated view of the tiers - Orion is a high herald, and fights Superman, so he 'should' know his place. Croc is a street/meta, so he 'shouldn't' be able to do it.

It's circular, and relies on writers and artists following battleboard tierings. It's a herald level feat, because Orion is a herald, and he is a herald because he does herald level feats.

@celey: that's great. But you see, the golem 'feat' is unquantifiable and we don't know how the fight panned out. So anyone can do it.