Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Thanks helpful minority. 👆
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Hal-Jordan-And-The-Green-Lantern-Corps/Issue-26?id=118782#1
So with the events being concurrent with no planet's shown individually destroyed, Occam's razor would at least dictate the Golem one shotted it all in one blast. Orion standing in front of him while this energy is releasing and then with smoldering leaving the Boom Tube indicates he was hit by it.
From the energy patterns it all looks like the Golem's blast but I don't know what the artist has Orion's energy look like. At the very least it's a durability feat and you're either arguing Orion took the brunt of a solar system destroying blast, or supplied half the power to do so. Doesn't matter at that stage. Semantics.
Moving onto the next issue.
Next issue has it attribute it to shockwaves and Orion. In lieu of multiple blasts being shown in the last issue, it goes back to one. Shockwaves implies it hit something hard and caused it to lash out in other directions. Obviously not the dictionary definition but "shockwaves" in comics are usually attributed to coming from ground zero of a fight. So you revert back to; were the shockwaves caused by blasting Orion, or from a beam battle? Kyle stating it was Orion implicates a beam battle.
Next panel has the "it'll pummel the whole planet in the process" which doesn't limit the prior collateral damage of the one blast we were shown, nor is that a limitation of power. Too often the immediate consequences being laid out are held as the end result. When something can destroy a solar system in 3 seconds I don't think using a planet being threatened is an indication of limits. I don't know if this is being used as the proof, but I noticed from someone earlier that they said Orion was playing hide and seek and the Golem was kablooeying his hiding spots, so I think this is the evidence?
So that comes out to 3 options for me:
The Golem did it all in one big attack
The Golem blasted Orion and the shockwaves blew up the star system
They beam battled and it did it
The panel of the battle shown and Orion smoking like Jman's family bathroom indicate he took the attack so... don't really care which of the 3 it was feat wise.
Art wise it looks like the Golem did it in one attack. Going by Kyle's words it looks like a beam battle. You either shift it to a durability feat or a power/lesser durability feat and it's still impressive.
I doubt the validity of shockwaves due to all the energy being shown, but if it is literal shockwaves then the ground zero that Orion was attacked on is more powerful is all. But whatever your prerogative is I guess. I just know that interpretation would lead to less quantification and somehow more strife.
I don't want to read more issues. That satisfies my curiosity.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Thanks helpful minority. 👆So with the events being concurrent with no planet's shown individually destroyed, Occam's razor would at least dictate the Golem one shotted it all in one blast. Orion standing in front of him while this energy is releasing and then with smoldering leaving the Boom Tube indicates he was hit by it.
From the energy patterns it all looks like the Golem's blast but I don't know what the artist has Orion's energy look like. At the very least it's a durability feat and you're either arguing Orion took the brunt of a solar system destroying blast, or supplied half the power to do so. Doesn't matter at that stage. Semantics.
Moving onto the next issue.
Next issue has it attribute it to shockwaves and Orion. In lieu of multiple blasts being shown in the last issue, it goes back to one. Shockwaves implies it hit something hard and caused it to lash out in other directions. Obviously not the dictionary definition but "shockwaves" in comics are usually attributed to coming from ground zero of a fight. So you revert back to; were the shockwaves caused by blasting Orion, or from a beam battle? Kyle stating it was Orion implicates a beam battle.
Next panel has the "it'll pummel the whole planet in the process" which doesn't limit the prior collateral damage of the one blast we were shown, nor is that a limitation of power. Too often the immediate consequences being laid out are held as the end result. When something can destroy a solar system in 3 seconds I don't think using a planet being threatened is an indication of limits. I don't know if this is being used as the proof, but I noticed from someone earlier that they said Orion was playing hide and seek and the Golem was kablooeying his hiding spots, so I think this is the evidence?
So that comes out to 3 options for me:
The Golem did it all in one big attack
The Golem blasted Orion and the shockwaves blew up the star system
They beam battled and it did itThe panel of the battle shown and Orion smoking like Jman's family bathroom indicate he took the attack so... don't really care which of the 3 it was feat wise.
Art wise it looks like the Golem did it in one attack. Going by Kyle's words it looks like a beam battle. You either shift it to a durability feat or a power/lesser durability feat and it's still impressive.
I doubt the validity of shockwaves due to all the energy being shown, but if it is literal shockwaves then the ground zero that Orion was attacked on is more powerful is all. But whatever your prerogative is I guess. I just know that interpretation would lead to less quantification and somehow more strife.
I don't want to read more issues. That satisfies my curiosity.
There's precedence for Orion's feat as well. In JLA/Titans issue 1, Orion can be seen blasting a ship on the moon, and the shockwaves start causing worldwide destruction on Earth. Batman says they need to stop Orion or he's going to tear Earth apart. That's just happening on accident. Imagine if he purposely meant to push everything. Orion powerscales to Darkseid.
Originally posted by leonidas
i have no issue calling it a great durability feat and never did. 👆
Is this not an issue though?
Certainly with the wording you have enough proof or more to state what's more likely between the two events.
If I show you a picture of two people fighting all you can glean from it is that they in fact fought. If I then describe the fight in more detail - that it in fact was one-sided, or one guy threw an infinite combo while the other did nothing - then you would have to factor that into your original view of this fight. It's additional context that you don't get from most comic fights, and it's no different here.
If you can posit that it is a durability feat based on the pictures then why can't it be what Kyle actually states? Certainly the writer on twitter gives Kyle's word verisimilitude, no?
If you're trying to be good faith and grant a morsel of dignity to it, then being adamant about it not being a shared feat isn't being good faith when more proof exists about it being a shared feat. Welcoming durability welcomes the other things too. Just because possibilities exist doesn't mean that one can't rise above like a black fist through white supremacy.
While I agree all are possible based on the presentation I still agree that one has more substance to it. People are free to interpret things how they want within the confines of probability however when the most cogent interpretation is disregarded - that's a question of what exactly your aim is. It'd be different if you stated that "shockwaves" have merit but you see it this way instead - you're still allowing that to be true but it doesn't personally have enough "weight" for you. The people who disregard Occam's razor usually end up slicing their ballsack when they find it's sharper than they thought.
I'm all for discussions and criticisms of feats, and some things backed by evidence simply aren't likely depending on the context - even if they do indeed have evidence - but the thing you're allowing is the one that gets knocked out as you go through the options. It's a start on the path to truth, not the end. It's a doorway that you might prefer after finding the answer. I'm not opposed to it being a pure durability feat myself... but that's with an acceptance of it being unlikely and within the confines of a discussion. I can't weigh that more against something with more evidence in good faith; I can just believe it more.
If it can be a durability feat, then it can be shockwaves in this context. The true ironclad stance against it is believing nothing happened imo. No slippery slope, don't even entertain there was a fight. Orion looked at him and the Golem started exploding like a scan so Orion ran away.
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Regardless though, I know durability/survivability might be a copout in comics but think of the semantics this creates. He didn't help destroy the solar system he just point blank tanked the attack that destroyed it. Much better. I knew Orion sucked!
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Is this not an issue though?Certainly with the wording you have enough proof or more to state what's more likely between the two events.
If I show you a picture of two people fighting all you can glean from it is that they in fact fought. If I then describe the fight in more detail - that it in fact was one-sided, or one guy threw an infinite combo while the other did nothing - then you would have to factor that into your original view of this fight. It's additional context that you don't get from most comic fights, and it's no different here.
If you can posit that it is a durability feat based on the pictures then why can't it be what Kyle actually states? Certainly the writer on twitter gives Kyle's word verisimilitude, no?
If you're trying to be good faith and grant a morsel of dignity to it, then being adamant about it not being a shared feat isn't being good faith when more proof exists about it being a shared feat. Welcoming durability welcomes the other things too. Just because possibilities exist doesn't mean that one can't rise above like a black fist through white supremacy.
While I agree all are possible based on the presentation I still agree that one has more substance to it. People are free to interpret things how they want within the confines of probability however when the most cogent interpretation is disregarded - that's a question of what exactly your aim is. It'd be different if you stated that "shockwaves" have merit but you see it this way instead - you're still allowing that to be true but it doesn't personally have enough "weight" for you. The people who disregard Occam's razor usually end up slicing their ballsack when they find it's sharper than they thought.
I'm all for discussions and criticisms of feats, and some things backed by evidence simply aren't likely depending on the context - even if they do indeed have evidence - but the thing you're allowing is the one that gets knocked out as you go through the options. It's a start on the path to truth, not the end. It's a doorway that you might prefer after finding the answer. I'm not opposed to it being a pure durability feat myself... but that's with an acceptance of it being unlikely and within the confines of a discussion. I can't weigh that more against something with more evidence in good faith; I can just believe it more.
If it can be a durability feat, then it can be shockwaves in this context. The true ironclad stance against it is believing nothing happened imo. No slippery slope, don't even entertain there was a fight. Orion looked at him and the Golem started exploding like a scan so Orion ran away.
---
Regardless though, I know durability/survivability might be a copout in comics but think of the semantics this creates. He didn't help destroy the solar system he just point blank tanked the attack that destroyed it. Much better. I knew Orion sucked!
It's not durability, nor is a feat for Orion.
Originally posted by Stoic
The destructive yield is very much quantifiable up to the point that it levels a solar system. We then see how easily the construct breaks free of Hal’s solid light construct. The thing that can’t be quantified is how much power if any did Orion add to the destruction of that solar system. Neither Killer Croc, or Spider-Man should be used because the blast far exceeds their threshold of survival on average.It did not make Orion look like he was above the Herald tier. Perhaps the Herald tier needs to be revised and separated into categories. For instance, Classic Juggernaut has showings that place his toughness well above the High Herald tier.
In case you need convincing, I've seen Logan tank a nuke and get knocked unconscious by a bop on the head. Tiering is the epitome of head canon. It's bullshit. Non existent. Characters are exactly as strong as plot needs them to be. Period.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
It's not durability, nor is a feat for Orion.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
In case you need convincing, I've seen Logan tank a nuke and get knocked unconscious by a bop on the head. Tiering is the epitome of head canon. It's bullshit. Non existent. Characters are exactly as strong as plot needs them to be. Period.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85he’s not even trying. Just responding to well thought out posts with one liner and grade school level name calling.
Yeah you can really tell Albert doesn't actually care one way or the other, he's just trolling us with contradictory posts.One day he'll argue A, then the next argue against it. The schizo nature of the posts means he's just arguing for the sake of it.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Great contribution. 👆I like how you paraphrased a section of my post too as a response to me like it was an answer to my post. Of course, how could I be so stupid to overlook the thing I said?
I already laid out the actual context to the "feat", you ignored it, and went off with your bias interpretation of the events.
I mean Alberto you literally contradicting yourself multiple times in this single thread. I dont even know what your "context" is
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Orion took the explosion almost point blank. You can see he was still there after the star system destroyed in that guy's eyes, they reflect the moment.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
[B]It's not durability, nor is a feat for Orion.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
In case you need convincing, I've seen Logan tank a nuke and get knocked unconscious by a bop on the head. Tiering is the epitome of head canon. It's bullshit. Non existent. Characters are exactly as strong as plot needs them to be. Period.
Why is this still open? Based off strength, speed, durability and power output, Bill's win this. You all factor these things in other threads involving DC characters, why not here? Bills hold every single advantage and one showing doesn't take away from that. This is a spite thread. Orion doesn't have enough fts to suggest him taking a majority against Bills.