Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
I mean I’d argue if he could keep Wonder Woman and Aquaman away with his optic blast the much weaker Wolverine is going to struggle to close the distance. You’re factoring in close quarter combat and that alone.And I’d argue consistently fighting Aquaman helps Manta’s case given Aquaman is capable of surviving lighting which initially is hotter than the sun or survive in the core of the earth with no damage to his uniform yet Black Manta can burn his uniform off him and his skin no problem.
What’s Namor done that’s comparable to stopping the force of Atlan’s scepter or shifting tectonic plates? Namor isn’t regarded as one of the strongest people on his earth yet Aquaman is. I’d argue Post-Flashpoint Aquaman has overall better physicals than Namor. Wolverine doesn’t even brawl with them in a way that would imply physical superiority here outside his obvious durability which I wouldn’t even begin to argue against him having a durability advantage and honestly he’s been put down by less than Hulk and Namor as well.
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Again Wolverine brawling with Namor or Hulk doesn’t make him as strong as either when it’s his healing factor, durability and claws that are being highlighted. I’d argue Manta pushing back Diana or Arthur would suggest Wolverine would struggle to close the distance if Black Manta hammered away at him with his optics.
The suit is designed to survive the pressures of underwater, so if it can't take punches, it would collapse. However it wont hold up to Logan slicing (not punching) the suit.
Black Manta MAY have the edge in physicals, but given that Its taken extremely skilled opponents (which Manta isn’t) or extremely strong opponents (which again Manta isn’t) to drop Wolverine, nothing in BMs arsenal can match the level it needs.
Black Manta may be able to keep Logan at a distance with his blasts, but those blasts aren’t knocking Logan out either. Logan has taken force optics blasts from Cyclops at CQC and continued fighting, while als0 having dodged at the same time. And in terms of heat? Logan took a full lightning strike from Ragnarok while fighting in the air and was still able to badly damage the clone. Also Logan continued his work and fighting even while vaporizing under the sun with no oxygen to breathe, so even burning is not going to stop Logan that easily. Logan can also dodge BMs blasts and close the gap, so his blasts are't going to be effective for long.
Arthur moved a tectonic plate underwater? Namor lifted a hydrobase biosphere outside water (so no water boost) Arthur needs help fighting most S-Tiers, Namor has taken on S-Tiers single handedly and even beaten some of them physically. Arthur may be one of the strongest in DC, but compared with Namor, he's nowehere close. Arthur has barely done anything impressive to suggest he can compete with Namor but that's the argument now, so lets leave it there.
And we're talking about lower defeats? ffs Black Manta got outmanouvred by Deathstroke in his own turf and was barely able to affect Slade outside. Logan can and WILL do much worse. Black Manta may be able to hold his own against Aquaman, but he won't last long against Logan. He virtually has nothing that can drop Logan before he gets sliced and gutted.
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
I’d argue he should be Deathstroke tier. So the same mid-tier status where his equipment provides him damage and durability to mess with high tiers but not win but dominate street level characters. The suit has enabled him to survive having a tsunami dropped on him, high speed punches from Mazahs and trade punches with Aquaman and Wonder Woman.
He can be Deathstroke Tier, but the Wolverine group is one family that is out of his paygrade.
Again no one has suggest Wolverine can’t or wouldn’t cut the suit in close quarter combat. The issue is closing that distance against someone who has multiple ranged options and a jet pack.
Aquaman isn’t Namor he doesn’t get a physical boost being underwater..What S-Tiers does Aquaman need help fighting?
Like Despero?
https://m.imgur.com/a/vUhDg
Olympian?
https://m.imgur.com/a/eEGlR
Wonder Woman multiple times?
https://m.imgur.com/a/88fW0
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/MW9HJHq
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/HKsutW9
Maybe even his half brother who took down the JL?
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/xDZCG9P
You’ve yet to mention something Namor did that’s over Aquaman stopping the force of an attack that destroyed the biggest continent on the planet. In terms of physical feats Aquaman is above Namor.
Read this.
Strength/Speed and Invulnerability rivaling his teammate Wonder Woman on land.
that whole Ragnarok thing sounds cool but Aquaman has tanked lightning all the same with no damage to his gear. He’s swam through lava and he’s been in the core of the Earth.
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/d9VLN6L
All that with his suit being completely fine yet Black Manta burns through his suit
Black Manta is overall physically more impressive outside durability if he could tag Wally West, Wonder Woman and Aquaman he most certainly could tag Logan. Again your not only downplaying Black Manta but you’re overhyping Logan. I think Wolverine would eventually win but it’s definitely going to be taxing on his HF.
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Again no one has suggest Wolverine can’t or wouldn’t cut the suit in close quarter combat. The issue is closing that distance against someone who has multiple ranged options and a jet pack.Aquaman isn’t Namor he doesn’t get a physical boost being underwater..What S-Tiers does Aquaman need help fighting?
Like Despero?
https://m.imgur.com/a/vUhDg
Olympian?
https://m.imgur.com/a/eEGlR
Wonder Woman multiple times?
https://m.imgur.com/a/88fW0
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/MW9HJHq
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/HKsutW9Maybe even his half brother who took down the JL?
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/xDZCG9PYou’ve yet to mention something Namor did that’s over Aquaman stopping the force of an attack that destroyed the biggest continent on the planet. In terms of physical feats Aquaman is above Namor.
Read this.
Strength/Speed and Invulnerability rivaling his teammate Wonder Woman on land.
that whole Ragnarok thing sounds cool but Aquaman has tanked lightning all the same with no damage to his gear. He’s swam through lava and he’s been in the core of the Earth.
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/d9VLN6L
All that with his suit being completely fine yet Black Manta burns through his suit
Black Manta is overall physically more impressive outside durability if he could tag Wally West, Wonder Woman and Aquaman he most certainly could tag Logan. Again your not only downplaying Black Manta but you’re overhyping Logan. I think Wolverine would eventually win but it’s definitely going to be taxing on his HF.
What is this?
Your own scan here for equating his strength with that of Wonder Woman shows that water gives him a boost.....
Arthur never survived in the Earths core on his own. Mera followed right after him an protected him with a water sphere.
And with the lava duct he was in, he had large swathes of water above him powering him up at the same time, so not impressive again:
Of course Arthur took Despero on his own. The sharks......
and Martian Manhunter were there for cheerleading I guess....
Arthur can't even handle Superman without Mera for backup or underwater Meanwhile Namor matches Hyperion well enough that Nighthawk has to get Hyperion to fake getting knocked out in order to grab Atlantis:
The story of this encounter was spread over two issues, so I'm trying my best to merge them right together. Heck when Hyperion and Dr Spectrum go back to retrieve Namor, Hyperion prefers a less powerful, kinder Namor compared to the one that whacked him away:
NOW you can say Nighthawk was telling the truth that Hyperion faked it, but THE fact they had to do that despite an entire superpowered team against Namor (on land) shows hows powerful Namor. AND short of flying he has nothing extra that Arthur has (at that time)
And Namor quickly dispatches the entire Squadron Supreme.
I'm not even getting to him handling the Avengers underwater, when he was capable of matching with an entire Squadron above water.
Now to Arthur's credit, he's managed to face off rather eely with Wonder Woman at times, and in this situation.
He thought he was fighting Manta and kept up with Wonder Woman (who thought she was fighting Cheetah) so that's a flex for Arthur.
Are you blind or something Mera comes a page later and puts Aquaman in a water shield. The scans I provided showed him without the water barrier Mera added. Your whole is a ridiculous amount of downplay and inability to actually read what’s being presented before you.
Aquaman also has a history of hurting S-Tiers with sea life he did recently against Brutus in the Justice League book who overpowered Black Adam it’s nothing new. How it works is up in the air some suggest his telepathy amplifies sea life but I’ve never seen the statement made in a book.
That Wonder Woman equivalence isn’t just a statement in a guidebook it’s been shown in every one of their encounters.
Superman is massively more powerful than Hyperion and the Atlanteans were holding back as well. Aquaman has survived heat vision from Amazo. While Namor got decapitated by Hyperion’s this is also the same Hyperion that struggled against Model Prime Ironman who couldn’t even beat Captain Marvel and resorted to creating the Marvel Buster armor which failed. It’s not really helping your case to present Hyperion to show some imaginary superiority that Namor has when Namor got killed by the dude
You’ve yet to show a strength feat for Namor that’s superior to stopping the force of an attack that destroyed a continent.
The only person notable in the whole Avengers fight against Namor was honestly She Hulk. Aaron’s Thor is a jobber, and the rest of those characters under Aaron did nothing worth of note. Not to mention Namor also struggled with Panther underwater and then later in the same series couldn’t beat Panther on land. You’re scaling doesn’t even work given how wonky all that is
So no, while both have shown impressive physicals and feats, Namor is FAR better and powerful based on his combat with S-Tiers like Hyperion and Hulk. Arthur needs help matching up with Superman (outside water) ffs but he's a worthy combatant to match Diana.
Which now brings us to Black Manta?
As SHOWN, Wolverine can take heat, force blasts, and Manta has literally nothing I'll admit the optics blasts will hurt that will put Logan down on land. That jet pack is the only thing that keeps him safe with range, but that WON'T drop Logan either, and Manta flies too close to an edge, Logan jumps and tags him.
Like I mentioned David's advantages and Logans dilemma underwater, That's the ONLY arena where Manta can dominate, given that he frequently fights Aquaman in that domain. Here the range combo and speed can work against Logan, but like I said, one slice and Manta is out for the count.
And Logan's no dummy either. A good strategist, experienced and built to fight the Hulk when needed (having even survived a few hours against Immortal Hulk), he's eventually outmanouvring and dodging Black Manta and going for the kill.
Are you blind or something Mera comes a page later and puts Aquaman in a water shield. The scans I provided showed him without the water barrier Mera added. Your whole is a ridiculous amount of downplay and inability to actually read what’s being presented before you.
Anyway, I remember correctly Black Manta once blasted ice layer with a huge laser. I personally think Black Manta use his laser pushing Logan and keeping distance from Logan.
Logan probably still wins but he also should take a lot of efforts to defeat Black Manta imo
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
So no, while both have shown impressive physicals and feats, Namor is FAR better and powerful based on his combat with S-Tiers like Hyperion and Hulk. Arthur needs help matching up with Superman (outside water) ffs but he's a worthy combatant to match Diana.
Which now brings us to Black Manta?
As SHOWN, Wolverine can take heat, force blasts, and Manta has literally nothing I'll admit the optics blasts will hurt that will put Logan down on land. That jet pack is the only thing that keeps him safe with range, but that WON'T drop Logan either, and Manta flies too close to an edge, Logan jumps and tags him.
Like I mentioned David's advantages and Logans dilemma underwater, That's the ONLY arena where Manta can dominate, given that he frequently fights Aquaman in that domain. Here the range combo and speed can work against Logan, but like I said, one slice and Manta is out for the count.
And Logan's no dummy either. A good strategist, experienced and built to fight the Hulk when needed (having even survived a few hours against Immortal Hulk), he's eventually outmanouvring and dodging Black Manta and going for the kill.
Give me a minute I’ll gladly post scans of current Namor struggling with Black Panther in the Avengers series the same writer who the Avengers fight. Captain America in the Invaders series or the weakened depowered Cho Hulk in that Atlantis miniseries. Your picking and choosing and ignoring stuff you don’t like it’s a silly way to argue.
You’ve yet to mention one feat Namor has that matches Aquaman stopping Atlan’s attack instead your piggybacking off Hulk and Hyperion.
Give me a statement for Namor in modern years that puts him on the level of strength with the strongest in his universe, hell give me an actual strength feat instead of trying to piggyback off Thor from a writer who often has him job.
https://m.imgur.com/PmaR71A
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Are you blind or something Mera comes a page later and puts Aquaman in a water shield. The scans I provided showed him without the water barrier Mera added. Your whole is a ridiculous amount of downplay and inability to actually read what’s being presented before you.Aquaman also has a history of hurting S-Tiers with sea life he did recently against Brutus in the Justice League book who overpowered Black Adam it’s nothing new. How it works is up in the air some suggest his telepathy amplifies sea life but I’ve never seen the statement made in a book.
That Wonder Woman equivalence isn’t just a statement in a guidebook it’s been shown in every one of their encounters.
Superman is massively more powerful than Hyperion and the Atlanteans were holding back as well. Aquaman has survived heat vision from Amazo. While Namor got decapitated by Hyperion’s this is also the same Hyperion that struggled against Model Prime Ironman who couldn’t even beat Captain Marvel and resorted to creating the Marvel Buster armor which failed. It’s not really helping your case to present Hyperion to show some imaginary superiority that Namor has when Namor got killed by the dude
That's FUNNY cuz before Mera arrives, Arthur appears to be boiling, so he had a momentary survival before he got roasted.
Also I literally mentioned Namor lifted an entire seabase above water and resisting a black holes gravity pull (above water). Arthurs trench stunt (and even then he only closed the trench) was underwater, and Namor created a trench underwater, SO that's moot on your end.
I like how you're bringing Arthurs best feats underwater where he has a water boost and in his element, while Namor's highlights which outweigh Arthur are above.
But I'm GENUINELY curious (because this I may have missed), where does it state that Atlan sunk a continent. Atlan sunk Atlantis, which is a city, where is Atlantis stated to be a continent and provide the scan, which if exists, as that's something I would have missed:
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
You’ve yet to show a strength feat for Namor that’s superior to stopping the force of an attack that destroyed a continent.The only person notable in the whole Avengers fight against Namor was honestly She Hulk. Aaron’s Thor is a jobber, and the rest of those characters under Aaron did nothing worth of note. Not to mention Namor also struggled with Panther underwater and then later in the same series couldn’t beat Panther on land. You’re scaling doesn’t even work given how wonky all that is
What are you talking about?
Arthur has RARELY taken any S-Tiers on singlehandedly short of Wonder Woman and Olympian. Namor has taken on multiple many times, with Sentry being the only one with a winning record to my knowledge. Jason Aaron's Thor was able to throw a prison with his makeshift hammer away, and while still being Unworthy, was powerful enough to engage Evan Apocalypse one-on-one and nearly murder BRB, so he counts. Note that Thor earlier just beat Namor above water, so Namor dominating Thor and the Avengers below is another flex.
Arthur needs help most of the time taking on S-Tiers. Namor can take on S-Tiers on his own. Black Panther is an enhanced superhuman with vibranium gear and advanced tech. Black Manta is basically a wetsuit with a jetpack and optic blasts. I'll consider Namor having problems with Black Panther a more serious threat than Black Manta with Aquaman (comparision-wise).
And Namor didn't struggle with Panther underwater. BP called for Avengers reinforcements in time:
Namor couldn't beat BP on land? Because it APPEARS that Cap interrupted him after he recovered from BPs smoke/flame blast/grenade:
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
That's FUNNY cuz before Mera arrives, Arthur appears to be boiling, so he had a momentary survival before he got roasted.
Also I literally mentioned Namor lifted an entire seabase above water and resisting a black holes gravity pull (above water). Arthurs trench stunt (and even then he only closed the trench) was underwater, and Namor created a trench underwater, SO that's moot on your end.
I like how you're bringing Arthurs best feats underwater where he has a water boost and in his element, while Namor's highlights which outweigh Arthur are above.
But I'm GENUINELY curious (because this I may have missed), where does it state that Atlan sunk a continent. Atlan sunk Atlantis, which is a city, where is Atlantis stated to be a continent and provide the scan, which if exists, as that's something I would have missed:
You mean because a Fire troll breathes fire on him? Where is he shown exactly to be boiling at? Did you get some special edition issue or something that wasn’t released to the public...?
It was stated in the issue where Aquaman fought the Karaquan, was stated in issue 3 of the deep dives issue and the scope of it was shown in the Thule arc in the vision of Thule.
The continent mentions
Aquaman issue 26
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7271668-ca786efe-60e3-406d-9d89-179a65c7efec.jpeg
From the Thule arc is suppose to highlight how the world looked before Atlantis sank
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7271669-7221fa00-4dc3-451c-afed-a8aaf3d5053d.jpeg
From deep dives issue 3
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7366998-6b31dd77-a354-400a-ba17-e174448e6eb5.jpeg
DC Atlantis and Marvel Atlantis don’t share the same history. DC it was said to have had 7 kingdoms on it and have been the largest continent to have existed on the planet.
And just because I promised
The Namor your trying to present as a peer to Thor and Hulk or someone capable of fighting an Avengers roster isn’t consistent.
In the same book he was fighting the Avengers he couldnt even put Black Panther down later in the same book he was struggling with both Captain America and Black Panther.
In the Invaders series he had a lengthy battle against Captain America who even worst made him bleed with a punch.
Not to mention he struggled with Cho Hulk in a miniseries about Atlantis..
Also, Lemme get this straight, Namor fighting off Thor and Hyperion doesn't count, but Aquaman struggling with Black Manta can be casually ignored?
I've yet to see anything that suggest Arthur evenly matches with Namor. His only best S-Tier feats are with Wonder Woman. Namor has the Hulk, Hyperion, Blue Marvel, Thor etc. ffs he defeated Sunspot and Sentry had to put some effort (relatively) in stopping him).
Arthur has statements. Namor has actual showings, though his strength feats are, I agree, rather limited. Arthur closed up a trench underwater. Namor created a trench underwater.
Arthur lifted a cruiseship and an aircraft carrier above water. Namor lifted an entire hydrobase above water:
