I give it to Walker. Unlike Cap, he will be trying to kill Rumlow, not only do enough damage to subdue him or knock him out. He's not as good a fighter as Steve, but he is far more ruthless and brutal. Rumlow has a chance to win if he gets a lucky hit in a vital area, but far more likely is John breaks a bone or sends him flying and jumps on him before he can recover.
In the h2h fight, Rumlow dies very fast.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Well shit. I knew I shouldn't have gone into this site before I watched the latest episode.
Sorry bro. I got spoiled too. Saw it on my feed like 20 minutes after I woke up.
If it's any consolation, I believe you at least knew he would eventually become a super soldier from the comics, correct?
Originally posted by KingD19
Sorry bro. I got spoiled too. Saw it on my feed like 20 minutes after I woke up.If it's any consolation, I believe you at least knew he would eventually become a super soldier from the comics, correct?
Yes, but I was thinking it was going to be near the last episode. Although I guess we're 4 out of 6 now so shouldn't have come as a surprise... still got surprised though. Nobody's fault but mine.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes, but I was thinking it was going to be near the last episode. Although I guess we're 4 out of 6 now so shouldn't have come as a surprise... still got surprised though. Nobody's fault but mine.
Yeah we're almost at the penultimate episode. No way they would save Walker's transformation for the last episode or the next season. We're supposed to see Sam with the shield at the end of season 1 I believe.
Despite knowing he upgrades, you shouldn't be disappointed. The episode, especially the action sequences are amazing.
Originally posted by KingD19
It's be really hilarious and awful if Battlestar gets up at the beginning of the next episode, walks out with a serious headache, then sees what Walker just did. And Walker's like Fffffuuuuuuuu...
Lol, that would be pretty dark.
But I kind of appreciate what happened in the sense that it shows us just how dangerous a Super Soldier who doesn't hold back is to a regular human. Because they should all be able to do that, but it's never really shown in the films. Their human opponents are basically rubber in other instances.
Finally watched the episode, and I think I'm going to go against the grain here. Falcon was able to hold his own in a fight against a bunch of super soldiers. Don't get me wrong, he would have been creamed without Bucky and Walker there to help him out, but he still didn't do so bad.
So far nothing Walker has done has indicated that he's anywhere near Cap's league. I mean, he beat up a super soldier who really was nothing more than a juiced up street thug. What makes us think he can take on a professionally trained hitman like Crossbones?
At least I know that Crossbones can hang with Cap for a bit. So for now I'm backing Crossbones till I get to see more of walker.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Lol, that would be pretty dark.But I kind of appreciate what happened in the sense that it shows us just how dangerous a Super Soldier who doesn't hold back is to a regular human. Because they should all be able to do that, but it's never really shown in the films. Their human opponents are basically rubber in other instances.
It would, but it would make Walker look even worse, which might be hard, but we'll see him pull it off in the next episode I bet. And yeah, Cap has sent plenty of normal people on trips with punches and kicks only for them to be okay. Or simply not dead.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Finally watched the episode, and I think I'm going to go against the grain here. Falcon was able to hold his own in a fight against a bunch of super soldiers. Don't get me wrong, he would have been creamed without Bucky and Walker there to help him out, but he still didn't do so bad.So far nothing Walker has done has indicated that he's anywhere near Cap's league. I mean, he beat up a super soldier who really was nothing more than a juiced up street thug. What makes us think he can take on a professionally trained hitman like Crossbones?
At least I know that Crossbones can hang with Cap for a bit. So for now I'm backing Crossbones till I get to see more of walker.
Falcon w/ gear did okay. He burned one to get her off him and made masterful use of his wings and maneuverability. We even see he could fight Batroc, but was at a disadvantage in the small space of that plane.
Cap was trying to put Rumlow down, he wasn't trying to kill him. Walker will be going from the kill from the start. A single full force hit will send him flying if it's center mass. If he hits a limb, it's breaking. Rumlow can't feel pain, doesn't mean he got more durable. And any guy who can bend a pipe in half and crush a jeep by jumping on it has a good chance against Rumlow if he's trying to straight up murder him, which Walker will be.
Also despite being a shitheel, he has the shield and knows how to use it.
Falcon has shown that he can use his suit to augment his attacks and agility during combat.
Also, Rumlow had a number of advantages when fighting Steve that he won't have here.
- He had the element of surprise and was able to deliver a hard cheapshot right to Steve's spine at the start of the fight and then punched him in the face while he was still on the ground. One could argue that it took Steve a bit to fully regain his bearings after that.
- Steve was not fighting to kill. Walker is a maniac who wouldn't hold back at all.
- Steve didn't have his shield, as he had to toss it right at the start. I'm assuming including melee and not just H2H in the OP means Walker has the shield for this fight but is simply restricted from using his gun, which makes a huge difference.
^ Sure, all of those are legit points. But I'm still failing to see to see what Walker did that supposedly raised him above Rumlow. In a clean, direct confrontation, Bucky was one-shotting some of those new super soldiers. They weren't that tough. Most of their success in fighting was due to superior numbers and the element of surprise.
On the other hand, we know that Rumlow was beating up Sam with ease in h2h. Granted, Falcon didn't have his gear but Rumlow was also not enhanced.
We know that Crossbones took out Black Widow with as much ease as Bucky did.
And while Crossbones didn't last too long against Cap, he still put up a better fight than those super soldiers did against Bucky in a direct one on one fight.
In the end, Rumlow still has better on screen feats to pull from than Walker.
Edit: the fact that Rumlow could take multiple punches from Cap without crumpling proves he has some degree of super strength. I also don't know where you guys got the idea that Cap wasn't going for the kill. He certainly had no hesitations hitting Rumlow's associates with full force. Cap has shown a willingness to kill before.
Sam has come a very long way since CA:TWS. And, as mentioned already, he's able to use the thrust from his suit to augment his physical attacks and his movement and agility in combat. Not just his punches. He was sending the Flag Smashers flying with a number of his attacks and avoiding a number of their hits in return in an acrobatic manner by using his wing pack.
When did Bucky oneshot any of them? He punches one so that they went off camera, but there's nothing to indicate the guy was KO'd, seeing as they were all able to flee after Karli killed Lemar. And all the others took multiple hits before going down. Even the one he beat in the knife fight wasn't actually KO'd, simply knocked to the ground. And the other one literally got sent through a brick wall.
Black Widow completely outskilled Rumlow, who only won because her Bites failed to have any effect on him.
If Cap wanted to kill Rumlow he could have used one of Brock's own piston arms to stab him after tearing it off him. Instead, he tosses it away. Or he could have snapped his neck after beating Rumlow into submission. He didn't do either. He was clearly more interested in apprehending him. The henchman didn't have the same value in that regard. We've seen him do similar with Batroc and his henchman before as well. Take out the fodder with extreme prejudice but simply try to KO/disable the leader to try and take them into custody.
Solid debate ITT. For me personally, I'm leaning towards Rumlow after a really good fight. I'm also assuming this is Walker without the shield since the OP clearly says H2H.
Crossbones had some great hits on Steve. He even had him on the ropes for a bit until Steve started taking him apart as he got his rhythm. The gauntlets themselves are no joke either. Every time Steve tried to block a hit from them, they sent him tumbling. Any hit that actually connected from them sent Steve straight up flying. It got to the point where Steve just started dodging every hit from the gauntlets and countering with a few punches of his own (which Crossbones actually took pretty well), so it's clear they were doing damage.
To me, US Agent hasn't shown himself to be on Caps level in terms of pure skill yet. I have my doubts he could finesse his way around the gauntlets the way Steve did. If he tries to keep blocking as Rumlow presses or takes to many hits, he's in trouble. The few hits US Agent took towards the end of this episode had him bleeding out of his skull (It would have taken a lot more than that to hurt cap). I think Rumlow would eventually beat him into submission or KO him. There is also the fact that he took a different serum to the one Steve took. Sure, the show claims it's a perfected and "more subtle" SS serum, but I wouldn't assume he's Caps physical equal just yet. Until we get a US Agent vs Winter Soldier fight in this show (which I'm really hoping for), I'm going to lean towards Rumlow.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Solid debate ITT. For me personally, I'm leaning towards Rumlow after a really good fight. I'm also assuming this is Walker without the shield since the OP clearly says H2H.
OP says H2H/Melee. Not just H2H. Melee means close range combat, likely in order to exclude Walker from using the gun he carries.
I should just clarify that, unlike what some others posted, I don't believe this is a stomp by any means. I just think the combination of Walker's superior stats, ferocity and I presume still having the shield and just not his gun nets him the win here. Because while he doesn't have Steve's H2H skill, he's proven that he's already very good with that thing, even able to ricochet it off multiple targets and have it come back to him.
https://i.imgur.com/yQuizvZ.mp4
Now, if he doesn't have the shield for this then, yeah, it becomes a different story.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerI'm going to be honest; I've never really looked into it but I've always considered a melee to be something more H2H focused. A quick google shows me definitions that agree with both 'close quarters combat' and 'H2H'. The slash in the OP is also something I've always taken more as an "and" rather than a "or". It's weird wording, but it seems like the OP meant without the shield. Otherwise, why specify that Rumlow has the knife gauntlets but not specify that Agent has the shield? On the other hand, the only fight we've seen with post-serum Agent is with the shield, so you may be right about OPs intentions. Also, is it really hand to hand if Rumlow gets the knife gauntlets?
OP says H2H/Melee. Not just H2H. Melee means close range combat, likely in order to exclude Walker from using the gun he carries.I should just clarify that, unlike what some others posted, I don't believe this is a stomp by any means. I just think the combination of Walker's superior stats, ferocity and I presume still having the shield and just not his gun nets him the win here. Because while he doesn't have Steve's H2H skill, he's proven that he's already very good with that thing, even able to ricochet it off multiple targets and have it come back to him.
https://i.imgur.com/yQuizvZ.mp4
Now, if he doesn't have the shield for this then, yeah, it becomes a different story.
If he has the shield, I can agree that he puts up a better fight and possibly even gets the win. Assuming he doesn't lose the shield, the force he throws it with post-serum can shatter concrete and could be pretty devastating for Rumlow (though Rumlow's armor seemed to be able to take hits from Rogers, and I don't really agree with the idea that he was holding back that entire fight; maybe towards the end as he gained the upper hand though). It's also worth noting that a hit from the gauntlet with the knives extended would be also have pretty lethal consequences for Walker too. Still, I'd give the majority to US Agent w/shield, but the majority to Rumlow w/out the shield.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
I'm going to be honest; I've never really looked into it but I've always considered a melee to be something more H2H focused. A quick google shows me definitions that agree with both 'close quarters combat' and 'H2H'. The slash in the OP is also something I've always taken more as an "and" rather than a "or". It's weird wording, but it seems like the OP meant without the shield. Otherwise, why specify that Rumlow has the knife gauntlets but not specify that Agent has the shield? On the other hand, the only fight we've seen with post-serum Agent is with the shield, so you may be right about OPs intentions. Also, is it really hand to hand if Rumlow gets the knife gauntlets?If he has the shield, I can agree that he puts up a better fight and possibly even gets the win. Assuming he doesn't lose the shield, the force he throws it with post-serum can shatter concrete and could be pretty devastating for Rumlow (though Rumlow's armor seemed to be able to take hits from Rogers, and I don't really agree with the idea that he was holding back that entire fight; maybe towards the end as he gained the upper hand though). It's also worth noting that a hit from the gauntlet with the knives extended would be also have pretty lethal consequences for Walker too. Still, I'd give the majority to US Agent w/shield, but the majority to Rumlow w/out the shield.
Well, that's why I assumed the stips just meant excluding ranged weapons i.e. Walker's gun. Would be weird to have a purely H2H intention but then specify that Crossbones can use bladed weapons.
And I pretty much agree. With the shield, Walker should be able to defend from the blades pretty well, and a full-force throw connecting is going to ruin Rumlow's day quite badly. Without the shield, Johnny boy likely gets stabbed to death.
And the argument isn't really that Steve was pulling his punches. More that he wasn't intentionally trying to inflict a fatal injury, which Walker is more likely to try and do, especially after how Lemar's death made him basically snap.