MCU US Agent vs. Crossbones

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Sam has come a very long way since CA:TWS. And, as mentioned already, he's able to use the thrust from his suit to augment his physical attacks and his movement and agility in combat. Not just his punches. He was sending the Flag Smashers flying with a number of his attacks and avoiding a number of their hits in return in an acrobatic manner by using his wing pack.

When did Bucky oneshot any of them? He punches one so that they went off camera, but there's nothing to indicate the guy was KO'd, seeing as they were all able to flee after Karli killed Lemar. And all the others took multiple hits before going down. Even the one he beat in the knife fight wasn't actually KO'd, simply knocked to the ground. And the other one literally got sent through a brick wall.

Black Widow completely outskilled Rumlow, who only won because her Bites failed to have any effect on him.

If Cap wanted to kill Rumlow he could have used one of Brock's own piston arms to stab him after tearing it off him. Instead, he tosses it away. Or he could have snapped his neck after beating Rumlow into submission. He didn't do either. He was clearly more interested in apprehending him. The henchman didn't have the same value in that regard. We've seen him do similar with Batroc and his henchman before as well. Take out the fodder with extreme prejudice but simply try to KO/disable the leader to try and take them into custody.

I don't think it's accurate to say Black Widow completely outskilled Rumlow since Rumlow wasn't even trying. He did only throw one punch after all. For the most part he was content on dragging Natasha and tanking all her hits. Still, the point I was trying to make was that Nat's hits were having about as little effect on him as they did on Bucky, which kinda shows he's been enhanced to similar stats.

Remember that Cap wasn't able to beat Crossbones by simply overpowering him, he had to outskill him. In fact it seemed Crossbones was actually the one overpowering Steve with those gloves of his but he was certainly taking Steve's hits the way you'd expect someone of similar physical stats would. As in, it took multiple shots to take him. Even Rumlow's headbutt hurt Steve a bit, and he wouldn't have been able to do that if he wasn't close to Steve's stats.

So where are we getting this idea that Walker has superior stats?

Yes Falcon's pack does help propel his attacks but there were attacks he launched which didn't use his jetpack that still affected the Flagsmashers. He hit Karli with a spinning back kick without using his jetpack and it knocked her down and stunned her. In comparison, Black Widow hit Crossbones multiple times and could barely budge him. So I don't buy that Walker has superior stats over Rumlow, at least till we get more feats from him.

As for Bucky, the fight I was thinking about was the fight in the staircase. I was mistaken, it was two shots that took out a flagsmasher instead of one, but it still proves that the flagsmashers aren't exactly that tough of an opponent one on one. There's another one in the group fight that he hits only once and that guy is taken out of the fight till they all rest and look at dead lemar.

In the end, Walker beating up a Flagsmasher is just not enough proof that he can take out Crossbones imo. I'm pretty sure he'll get better feats in the next few episodes but until then, I'd say Crossbones wins by simply having better feats.

Crossbones inability to feel pain and Cap being unwilling to shatter his bones or ping-pong his brain in his skull to stop him is a heavy dose of context. He wasn't physically enhanced by getting burned up. His pain receptors just didn't tell his body it was time to go down so he could keep fighting. Also he was covered in heavy duty armor that helped him out even more.

Rumlow has no physical stat enhancements whatsoever.

Originally posted by KingD19
Crossbones inability to feel pain and Cap being unwilling to shatter his bones or ping-pong his brain in his skull to stop him is a heavy dose of context. He wasn't physically enhanced by getting burned up. His pain receptors just didn't tell his body it was time to go down so he could keep fighting. Also he was covered in heavy duty armor that helped him out even more.

Rumlow has no physical stat enhancements whatsoever.

There's actually a higher chance of injuring someone by hitting them multiple times rather than just knocking him out one time. If Cap really wanted to not injure Rumlow, he would have tried to take him out with as few hits as possible. So this idea that Cap was holding back so much that he needed to hit Crossbones with multiple hits just doesn't make sense. That's just not how fights go and not how Cap fights, since we've seen him knock out people multiple times with 1 to 2 shots before. In fact that's generally how he fights. The fact that he needed to use multiple shots against Crossbones proves that he couldn't do it with just one or two.

Besides, Rumlow was clearly enhanced above more than simply not feeling pain, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to briefly stun Cap with a headbutt.

Delete please.

Originally posted by FrothByte
There's actually a higher chance of injuring someone by hitting them multiple times rather than just knocking him out one time. If Cap really wanted to not injure Rumlow, he would have tried to take him out with as few hits as possible. So this idea that Cap was holding back so much that he needed to hit Crossbones with multiple hits just doesn't make sense. That's just not how fights go and not how Cap fights, since we've seen him knock out people multiple times with 1 to 2 shots before. In fact that's generally how he fights. The fact that he needed to use multiple shots against Crossbones proves that he couldn't do it with just one or two.

Besides, Rumlow was clearly enhanced above more than simply not feeling pain, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to briefly stun Cap with a headbutt.

Regardless, we know for a fact Cap can easily maim or injure Rumlow if he wanted. Ultron happened before Civil War and in Ultron Cap was fighting a 7 foot tall robot man and throwing him hard enough to shatter highway support pillars. So there's far more evidence pointing to him not trying to seriously injure or kill Rumlow because it's evident Cap could do some serious damage if he had a mind to.

Rumlow is a sub-boss though and given extra screen time to make him seem like a threat. Even Batroc who is absolutely normal gave Cap a bit of trouble because he was the leader of the pirates. Everyone else got one shot, but he actually fought with Steve for a few minutes, turned his head, even pushed him back.

There is no stated evidence or shown evidence of Rumlow being enhanced. He got burned so badly he no longer felt pain, that's it. If you want to say he got enhanced offscreen somewhere, you need to prove it.

And again, he didn't "stun" Cap with a headbutt. With his heavily armored helmet, he headbutted him, and he took advantage of the split second Cap reeled back to hit him with the pile drivers.

It even appears Cap dislocated/fractured/broke Rumlow's elbow to remove his gauntlet and he basically ignored it after a few seconds. We hear the crack of the bone as he snaps his elbow, then after favoring it, he just uses it to help take his helmet off like the injury didn't happen. Showing again how little his pain receptors actually work.

YouTube video

Originally posted by KingD19
Regardless, we know for a fact Cap can easily maim or injure Rumlow if he wanted. Ultron happened before Civil War and in Ultron Cap was fighting a 7 foot tall robot man and throwing him hard enough to shatter highway support pillars. So there's far more evidence pointing to him not trying to seriously injure or kill Rumlow because it's evident Cap could do some serious damage if he had a mind to.

Rumlow is a sub-boss though and given extra screen time to make him seem like a threat. Even Batroc who is absolutely normal gave Cap a bit of trouble because he was the leader of the pirates. Everyone else got one shot, but he actually fought with Steve for a few minutes, turned his head, even pushed him back.

There is no stated evidence or shown evidence of Rumlow being enhanced. He got burned so badly he no longer felt pain, that's it. If you want to say he got enhanced offscreen somewhere, you need to prove it.

And again, he didn't "stun" Cap with a headbutt. With his heavily armored helmet, he headbutted him, and he took advantage of the split second Cap reeled back to hit him with the pile drivers.

It even appears Cap dislocated/fractured/broke Rumlow's elbow to remove his gauntlet and he basically ignored it after a few seconds. We hear the crack of the bone as he snaps his elbow, then after favoring it, he just uses it to help take his helmet off like the injury didn't happen. Showing again how little his pain receptors actually work.

YouTube video

A person's inability to feel pain won't make them immune to getting electrocuted, getting knocked out, getting the wind knocked out of them, or even getting knocked back when they get hit with powerful punches and kicks.

There's no way Rumlow could have fought against Cap and BW the way he did unless he was enhanced. That headbutt staggered Cap and made him take a few steps back. That doesn't happen to you unless the hit hurt you.

You're trying to make up a scenario that Cap was massively holding back, a lot more than he generally does against other opposition, when the more obvious answer is simply that Rumlow was simply enhanced.

Originally posted by FrothByte
A person's inability to feel pain won't make them immune to getting electrocuted, getting knocked out, getting the wind knocked out of them, or even getting knocked back when they get hit with powerful punches and kicks.

There's no way Rumlow could have fought against Cap and BW the way he did unless he was enhanced.

You're trying to make up a scenario that Cap was massively holding back, a lot more than he generally does against other opposition, when the more obvious answer is simply that Rumlow was simply enhanced.

Rumlow himself tells Widow when she tries to "bite" him. "IT DON'T WORK LIKE THAT, NO MORE!" Every bit of information in every official source and wiki says he had enhanced pain immunity because of his pain receptors being burned. Not a one says he was enhanced. There's no novelizations, no side stories, no director/producer behind the scenes. Nothing. So what evidence do you have that he was enhanced? Because without the gauntlets, he didn't do anything impressive that suggests superhuman stats.

I'm not making up a scenario. We know how strong Cap is, so if someone can hold up against him for a while without having powers of their own, then he's clearly not using all his strength.

Was Batroc enhanced? His fight with Cap lasted several minutes. And the similarity to Crossbones was that he was the boss of a small group of bad guys who Cap already walked the dog on. But just like Crossbones, once Cap figured out his gimmick and tangled with him a bit, he easily took him down.

Originally posted by KingD19
Rumlow himself tells Widow when she tries to "bite" him. "IT DON'T WORK LIKE THAT, NO MORE!" Every bit of information in every official source and wiki says he had enhanced pain immunity because of his pain receptors being burned. Not a one says he was enhanced. There's no novelizations, no side stories, no director/producer behind the scenes. Nothing. So what evidence do you have that he was enhanced? Because without the gauntlets, he didn't do anything impressive that suggests superhuman stats.

I'm not making up a scenario. We know how strong Cap is, so if someone can hold up against him for a while without having powers of their own, then he's clearly not using all his strength.

Was Batroc enhanced? His fight with Cap lasted several minutes. And the similarity to Crossbones was that he was the boss of a small group of bad guys who Cap already walked the dog on. But just like Crossbones, once Cap figured out his gimmick and tangled with him a bit, he easily took him down.

You're still avoiding the elephant in the room. Being immune from pain doesn't make you immune from getting electrocuted. BW zapped Rumlow on his neck where his flesh was exposed. He doesn't spasm, his muscles don't lock up, in fact he just continues to talk normally. Can you do that by simply not feeling pain?

As for Batroc, I'm glad you brought that up. Watch that fight again and see how effective Cap's hits are on him compared to Rumlow. Batroc lasted as long as he did because he was fast and furious. But every time Cap hit him it only took 1-2 shots before he got knocked down. Rumlow was clearly tougher than Batroc, just not as fast or as skilled.

In fact in their elevator fight, Cap took out Rumlow with one or two shots IIRC. Why wouldn't he do the same thing here? Immunity from pain doesn't make you immune from getting knocked out.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You're still avoiding the elephant in the room. Being immune from pain doesn't make you immune from getting electrocuted. BW zapped Rumlow on his neck where his flesh was exposed. He doesn't spasm, his muscles don't lock up, in fact he just continues to talk normally. Can you do that by simply not feeling pain?

As for Batroc, I'm glad you brought that up. Watch that fight again and see how effective Cap's hits are on him compared to Rumlow. Batroc lasted as long as he did because he was fast and furious. But every time Cap hit him it only took 1-2 shots before he got knocked down. Rumlow was clearly tougher than Batroc, just not as fast or as skilled.

Maybe? I'm not expert on it. I'm simply following the guidelines and feats set up by the movie. His pain receptors don't work. That's official. And there's real life evidence that tasers don't work on everyone. I can put up a video right now of a guy getting tasered, and he calmly pulls the prongs out and looks at the officer. He's just a normal guy.

Batroc wasn't armored. He was wearing normal clothes. Crossbones had on a full armored suit, and a metal helmet. Also Batroc felt the impact of every single hit Cap gave him. Rumlow, having no pain receptors, could ignore them as long as he could still move. Yes, being unable to feel pain means you can take more hits than someone who can. You can stab yourself in the arm all day and I'll stop after one because it hurts and my brain tells me that's bad.

You can take the issue up with Marvel because that's what's said, that's what's shown. Maybe Hollywood doesn't know how to properly show off people with pain immunity, because Francis in Deadpool said his power was he "didn't feel pain", but he was physically strong enough to fight Deadpool and had enhanced reflexes as well.

The fact though is we don't see any physical enhancement from Rumlow. Only him ignoring damage that would put other people down because he can't feel it.

During the elevator fight, Steve was hitting Rumlow along with the other HYDRA agents but saved him for last. Then he checked him in the gut and slammed his skull into an elevator ceiling grate hard enough to dent the metal. He didn't deliver any KO shots to Rumlow's skull when he came back as Crossbones. Even the kick that sent him flying was in his armored vest, not his face.

Originally posted by KingD19
Maybe? I'm not expert on it. I'm simply following the guidelines and feats set up by the movie. His pain receptors don't work. That's official. And there's real life evidence that tasers don't work on everyone. I can put up a video right now of a guy getting tasered, and he calmly pulls the prongs out and looks at the officer. He's just a normal guy.

Batroc wasn't armored. He was wearing normal clothes. Crossbones had on a full armored suit, and a metal helmet. Also Batroc felt the impact of every single hit Cap gave him. Rumlow, having no pain receptors, could ignore them as long as he could still move. Yes, being unable to feel pain means you can take more hits than someone who can. You can stab yourself in the arm all day and I'll stop after one because it hurts and my brain tells me that's bad.

You can take the issue up with Marvel because that's what's said, that's what's shown. Maybe Hollywood doesn't know how to properly show off people with pain immunity, because Francis in Deadpool said his power was he "didn't feel pain", but he was physically strong enough to fight Deadpool and had enhanced reflexes as well.

The fact though is we don't see any physical enhancement from Rumlow. Only him ignoring damage that would put other people down because he can't feel it.

During the elevator fight, Steve was hitting Rumlow along with the other HYDRA agents but saved him for last. Then he checked him in the gut and slammed his skull into an elevator ceiling grate hard enough to dent the metal. He didn't deliver any KO shots to Rumlow's skull. Even the kick that sent him flying was in his armored vest, not his face.

Look, let me offer you an olive branch. If you can prove to me how being immune from pain allows you to get tasered and the neck and continue talking normally, then I'll agree with you.

Otherwise, not everything in a movie needs to be spelled out. In fact it's usually considered bad writing when you have to explain everything via exposition. It's normally preferred to show it in action.

When we first saw Bucky in the Winter Soldier, there was no mention of him being enhanced outside of his metal arm. But we all inferred that he was enahnced based on how he was fighting Cap. Same logic here. Crossbones could not have fought the way he did without enhancements, armor or no. Unless, like I said, you can prove thar being immune to pain also makes you immune from getting tasered in the neck.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Look, let me offer you an olive branch. If you can prove to me how being immune from pain allows you to get tasered and the neck and continue talking normally, then I'll agree with you.

Otherwise, not everything in a movie needs to be spelled out. In fact it's usually considered bad writing when you have to explain everything via exposition. It's normally preferred to show it in action.

When we first saw Bucky in the Winter Soldier, there was no mention of him being enhanced outside of his metal arm. But we all inferred that he was enahnced based on how he was fighting Cap. Same logic here. Crossbones could not have fought the way he did without enhancements, armor or no. Unless, like I said, you can prove thar being immune to pain also makes you immune from getting tasered in the neck.

Why do I have to prove what the movie made canon in the Marvel universe? According to them, in their movie, that's how it is. It's up to you to prove it's different since your opinion is the one that goes against stated and written canon.

You can't use Bucky as an example. He showed blatant superhuman physical stats even without his metal arm because he was knocking Cap around as easily as Cap did to him. Rumlow only used the piledrivers because he wasn't physically enhanced. Even if he was, it's only his toughness. If he was super strong he wouldn't have needed the piledrivers would he?

Also, Bucky had further exposition to explain how he was alive after 70+ years, and we knew he was enhanced because when he was a normal guy he wasn't. We saw him fighting as a normal man so clearly him being so jacked, having a metal arm, and being able to launch Steve like a normal guy showed he was enhanced even before they explained.

As for Rumlow, since nothing was explained, you can't just use your opinion as fact. Bucky got explained, Rumlow got killed. He can't be proved to be enhanced because he's dead, and before he died, the only thing he showed was the ability to ignore hits and Widow's bites.

Originally posted by KingD19
Why do I have to prove what the movie made canon in the Marvel universe? According to them, in their movie, that's how it is. It's up to you to prove it's different since your opinion is the one that goes against stated and written canon.

You can't use Bucky as an example. He showed blatant superhuman physical stats even without his metal arm because he was knocking Cap around as easily as Cap did to him. Rumlow only used the piledrivers because he wasn't physically enhanced. Even if he was, it's only his toughness. If he was super strong he wouldn't have needed the piledrivers would he?

Also, Bucky had further exposition to explain how he was alive after 70+ years, and we knew he was enhanced because when he was a normal guy he wasn't. We saw him fighting as a normal man so clearly him being so jacked, having a metal arm, and being able to launch Steve like a normal guy showed he was enhanced even before they explained.

As for Rumlow, since nothing was explained, you can't just use your opinion as fact. Bucky got explained, Rumlow got killed. He can't be proved to be enhanced because he's dead, and before he died, the only thing he showed was the ability to ignore hits and Widow's bites.

Well you need to prove it because what you're saying goes against what we see on screen. You say Rumlow wasn't enhanced but we have feats of him doing stuff of a superhuman nature. The golden rule in the mvf is that we go by feats, and it's feats above everything else even above what Marvel may or may not have written on their site (you'll need to provide a source for that btw since I can't confirm where you actually read that).

Again, Rumlow headbutt Steve and made him stagger back a step or two. He couldn't have achieved that without some degree of super strength. You can't use the excuse of him having an armored mask because Cap has taken punches from Ironman without getting staggered back a step.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Well you need to prove it because what you're saying goes against what we see on screen. You say Rumlow wasn't enhanced but we have feats of him doing stuff of a superhuman nature. The golden rule in the mvf is that we go by feats, and it's feats above everything else even above what Marvel may or may not have written on their site (you'll need to provide a source for that btw since I can't confirm where you actually read that).

Again, Rumlow headbutt Steve and made him stagger back a step or two. He couldn't have achieved that without some degree of super strength. You can't use the excuse of him having an armored mask because Cap has taken punches from Ironman without getting staggered back a step.

Upon closer inspection of the fight, at 1:52, Rumlow's swing gets caught by both Cap's hands, then he headbutts him while he's off balance. Cap goes back a single step and Rumlow gut punches him as he's backing up and knocks him into the wall. So he took advantage of his armored helmet and Steve's bad positionning to set him up for a combo. He didn't just stand there, snap his head forward and Steve stumbled around glossy eyed.

Are you saying Rumlow who needed pile driver gauntlets to deliver superhuman punches, was so strong that he could just normally headbutt Steve into submission? Why does he need the piledrivers then?

Is the headbutt the only superhuman feat you're talking about? Because you're making it seem like he can headbutt harder than Iron Man can punch. You need to prove he's superhuman because a single headbutt's not gonna cut it. Batroc knocked Cap around with kicks and punches and he's a normal guy. He's not Luke Cage, normal people can still affect him. But they're not gonna put him down. And if he really wants to, a single punch or kick would kill them.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Look, let me offer you an olive branch. If you can prove to me how being immune from pain allows you to get tasered and the neck and continue talking normally, then I'll agree with you.

Otherwise, not everything in a movie needs to be spelled out. In fact it's usually considered bad writing when you have to explain everything via exposition. It's normally preferred to show it in action.

When we first saw Bucky in the Winter Soldier, there was no mention of him being enhanced outside of his metal arm. But we all inferred that he was enhanced based on how he was fighting Cap. Same logic here. Crossbones could not have fought the way he did without enhancements, armor or no. Unless, like I said, you can prove thar being immune to pain also makes you immune from getting tasered in the neck.

Originally posted by KingD19
Upon closer inspection of the fight, at 1:52, Rumlow's swing gets caught by both Cap's hands, then he headbutts him while he's off balance. Cap goes back a single step and Rumlow gut punches him as he's backing up and knocks him into the wall. So he took advantage of his armored helmet and Steve's bad positionning to set him up for a combo. He didn't just stand there, snap his head forward and Steve stumbled around glossy eyed.

Are you saying Rumlow who needed pile driver gauntlets to deliver superhuman punches, was so strong that he could just normally headbutt Steve into submission? Why does he need the piledrivers then?

Is the headbutt the only superhuman feat you're talking about? Because you're making it seem like he can headbutt harder than Iron Man can punch. You need to prove he's superhuman because a single headbutt's not gonna cut it. Batroc knocked Cap around with kicks and punches and he's a normal guy. He's not Luke Cage, normal people can still affect him. But they're not gonna put him down. And if he really wants to, a single punch or kick would kill them.

No, I'm obviously not talking about just the headbutt. I've repeatedly stated that him taking a taser to the throat and not reacting to it, him getting hit repeatedly by Cap and not easily going down, him being able to tank pretty much every hit BW threw at him, and him knocking Steve back with a headbutt are all superhuman feats. None of these would be doable by simply being immune to pain.

Now take note, Black Widow herself is capable of somewhat superhuman feats when compared to a real world human like surviving a backhand from Hulk. So Crossbones treating her like he did puts him massively above a regular real-world human.

And no, Cap wasn't set off balance by blocking Rumlow's hands. He used both arms to block Rumlow's single-arm blow but Cap was standing upright and firmly planted when he got headbutt. I just watched the scene in slow motion. So Cap getting staggered by that headbutt means it hit with a decent amount of force, especially when Cap himself wears a helmet.

In the end, I agree with what Arachnid said. It doesn't really matter whether you think Crossbones did what he did because he was enhanced or if it was because of his armor, hydraulics and immunity to pain. The important part is that he was able to do them. He completely brushed off all the attacks Black Widow threw at him. He was able to take multiple hits from Cap without going down, was not knocked out despite taking a full powered kick from Cap that launched him a dozen or so meters away.

What this means is that Walker will need to land a number of hits in order to knock down Rumlow nevermind knock out, whereas each of Rumlow's punches will be sending Walker flying back if it connects. And Walker has not shown the skill necessary to avoid all those blows nor the skill necessary to disarm Rumlow.

I'm not saying it's a stomp either way, but Walker just doesn't have the feats to give him a victory over Rumlow at this point. I'm sure that will change in the next few episodes.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
TBH in Rumlows case, I'd just go with comic book logic and say he trained to be beyond peak human after his burning. Think Daredevil in the show somehow nearly becoming a bullet timer and fighting supernatural ninjas and the Black Death (which KOed Luke Cage) to a stalemate despite the blinding chemicals just gifting him heightened hearing. He accomplished all this through training. It's also similar to Ozymandias kicking people across rooms through concrete pillars and catching bullets through training. I think that satisfies both your arguments tbh. Nothing suggests Rumlow was necessarily amped through SS serum or anything, but due to the nature of the material he's in (a comic book movie), he doesn't really have to be. He can just do exactly as his feats allow, meaning if he can headbutt hard enough to hurt Cap, he can headbutt hard enough to hurt US Agent.

Black Widow is already beyond peak human. We saw how easily Crossbones dealt with her.

As for Ozymandias, he's generally considered superhuman in these threads despite there never any mention in the movies that he has super powers. So I don't know why we're applying a different standard to Crossbones.

But I agree, whether or not Rumlow is enhanced is not as important as the fact that he managed to go toe to toe with Cap for a bit. Which means he's strong and skilled enough to put a hurting on Walker.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't think it's accurate to say Black Widow completely outskilled Rumlow since Rumlow wasn't even trying. He did only throw one punch after all. For the most part he was content on dragging Natasha and tanking all her hits. Still, the point I was trying to make was that Nat's hits were having about as little effect on him as they did on Bucky, which kinda shows he's been enhanced to similar stats.

Remember that Cap wasn't able to beat Crossbones by simply overpowering him, he had to outskill him. In fact it seemed Crossbones was actually the one overpowering Steve with those gloves of his but he was certainly taking Steve's hits the way you'd expect someone of similar physical stats would. As in, it took multiple shots to take him. Even Rumlow's headbutt hurt Steve a bit, and he wouldn't have been able to do that if he wasn't close to Steve's stats.

So where are we getting this idea that Walker has superior stats?

Yes, he threw one punch and it was easily avoided. So, you'll argue Steve was fighting hard against Rumlow but Rumlow wasn't trying against Nat? And no, that's not evidence they've been enhanced to similar levels when one was wearing heavy body and face armour while the other wasn't. And her punches were making Brock's head snap around.

Rumlow even featured extensively in the Civil War prequel comic and there was nothing anywhere in there to suggest he'd received some kind of Super Soldier-like enhancement.

IMO, it's more likely that the piston arms are quite heavy so there's a lot of extra mass behind Rumlow's swings, coupled with the added power the arms themselves give. And Rumlow used his entire upper body behind the headbutt to send Steve back a step, which you don't need super strength to do. Especially when your entire face is covered in a solid mask. He immediately delivers another hit afterwards so it's hard to gauge how much lasting effect the headbutt had on its own.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes Falcon's pack does help propel his attacks but there were attacks he launched which didn't use his jetpack that still affected the Flagsmashers. He hit Karli with a spinning back kick without using his jetpack and it knocked her down and stunned her. In comparison, Black Widow hit Crossbones multiple times and could barely budge him. So I don't buy that Walker has superior stats over Rumlow, at least till we get more feats from him.

When did Falcon stun her? Are you talking about in the courtyard, where he kicked her hard enough to knock her to the base of a pillar a few feet away? Because she was back on her feet and in pursuit less than ten seconds after he delivered the kick, after listening to their plans first.

Originally posted by FrothByte
As for Bucky, the fight I was thinking about was the fight in the staircase. I was mistaken, it was two shots that took out a flagsmasher instead of one, but it still proves that the flagsmashers aren't exactly that tough of an opponent one on one. There's another one in the group fight that he hits only once and that guy is taken out of the fight till they all rest and look at dead lemar.

In the end, Walker beating up a Flagsmasher is just not enough proof that he can take out Crossbones imo. I'm pretty sure he'll get better feats in the next few episodes but until then, I'd say Crossbones wins by simply having better feats.

Uh, yeah, and one of those shots sent him sailing down a staircase and the other literally sent him through a solid brick wall. It's not like Bucky just punched the guy twice and KO'd him.

And there's literally not even 15 seconds screen time between Bucky punching that one Flag Smasher and Karli clocking Lemar. So, if they were out, it wasn't for very long at all. And that's assuming they were and not simply off screen while the attention of the camera was focused on Karli trying to stab Walker and Lemar intervening.

Your argument actually makes Crossbones sound kind of shitty in the skill department. Because if he was enhanced to similar levels to a Super Soldier, had full body and face armour, piston arms with knives to further enhance his lethality while Steve was unarmed, was bloodlusted while Steve wasn't, had the element of surprise, and still got his ass kicked in fairly short order, then that's actually a bad showing for him.

And just regarding the not explicitly being told Bucky was enhanced thing, his feats in CA:TWS were much more overt, like kicking a guy like 20 feet into a jet engine, or jumping off a bridge and crushing a car on impact, all without the use of extra gear or armor. Plus, Hydra was already shown experimenting on him in CA:TFA which allowed him to survive falling a couple hundred feet into an icy canyon. So, the evidence for Bucky being superhuman was far more overt than soaking up some hits or delivering super hard blows while having gear that specifically aided in doing so, along with the deadened nerves/immunity to pain thing (which has actually been used by other films besides MCU stuff as an excuse to make characters inhumanly tough).

Originally posted by Arachnid1
TBH in Rumlows case, I'd just go with comic book logic and say he trained to be beyond peak human after his burning. Think Daredevil in the show somehow nearly becoming a bullet timer and fighting supernatural ninjas and the Black Death (which KOed Luke Cage) to a stalemate despite the blinding chemicals just gifting him heightened hearing. He accomplished all this through training. It's also similar to Ozymandias kicking people across rooms through concrete pillars and catching bullets through training. I think that satisfies both your arguments tbh. Nothing suggests Rumlow was necessarily amped through SS serum or anything, but due to the nature of the material he's in (a comic book movie), he doesn't really have to be. He can just do exactly as his feats allow, meaning if he can headbutt hard enough to hurt Cap, he can headbutt hard enough to hurt US Agent.

Technically, the chemicals enhanced all of Matt's remaining senses. Not just hearing. 😛

Along with hearing (which would also grant him enhanced equilibrium and balance), it boosted touch, taste and smell as well. Which, on a random note, would actually suck IMO. For example, imagine walking past a dumpster and being able to basically taste the garbage in your mouth.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Technically, the chemicals enhanced all of Matt's remaining senses. Not just hearing. 😛

Along with hearing (which would also grant him enhanced equilibrium and balance), it boosted touch, taste and smell as well. Which, on a random note, would actually suck IMO. For example, imagine walking past a dumpster and being able to basically taste the garbage in your mouth.

Also, that dumpster scenario you describe happened every summer in NYC. That trash would get ****ing RIPE!

Also also, not feeling pain is one power I wouldn’t want. Pain let’s you know when to back the **** up. IRL you’d soon wind up like Mr. Glass.