MCU US Agent vs. Crossbones

Originally posted by riv6672
^^^How would better hearing translate into better balance?
Not complaining, just wondering.

Also, that dumpster scenario you describe happened every summer in NYC. That trash would get ****ing RIPE!

Also also, not feeling pain is one power I wouldn’t want. Pain let’s you know when to back the **** up. IRL you’d soon wind up like Mr. Glass.

Your ears and your balance are directly linked, actually. Specifically the vestibular system inside your inner ear. It has special sensory cells which detect motion when you move your head and, along with the cochlear nerve, sends electrical signals to your brain. The whole process is a bit more complicated than that, but the end result is that it affects your balance and how quickly you can reorient yourself after rapid movements or spins.

Then if you also factor in that Matt, despite being blind, has no blindspots due to not being reliant on line of sight, and actually has an enhanced sense of touch (meaning a higher awareness of his own body among other things), his senses actually make a huge impact in terms of fighting capability.

Nicely explained, ty! 👆

And just to be clear, I have zero issues with the notion that Rumlow, being a comic book movie character, is stronger and tougher than a real-world human would be. Or that his natural abilities coupled with his skill level and gear and pain immunity can allow him to contend with a Super Soldier-tier opponent. What I am explicitly objecting to is this notion that he was somehow enhanced off screen to have Super Soldier-like abilities of his own. I don't see him being able to embed a shield into concrete with a toss, launch opponents several feet with attacks, casually bend a metal pipe or withstand a multi-floor drop onto the roof of a vehicle without some kind of gear to aid him, never mind any of the other Super Soldier feats we've seen in the show or films.

And that Walker being able to handle the Flag Smashers just as easily as Bucky did, even when fighting some of them 2-on-1, coupled with his ruthlessness and vibranium shield (which, as has been shown throughout the films, is great at absorbing super strong punches or kicks) is enough to net him a win after a hard fight. And, as I have already stated, without the shield I do see Crossbones winning. Now, others are free to disagree, but nothing I have seen on screen or in this thread makes me think otherwise about either position.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And just to be clear, I have zero issues with the notion that Rumlow, being a comic book movie character, is stronger and tougher than a real-world human would be. Or that his natural abilities coupled with his skill level and gear and pain immunity can allow him to contend with a Super Soldier-tier opponent. What I am explicitly objecting to is this notion that he was somehow enhanced off screen to have Super Soldier-like abilities of his own. I don't see him being able to embed a shield into concrete with a toss, launch opponents several feet with attacks, casually bend a metal pipe or withstand a multi-floor drop onto the roof of a vehicle without some kind of gear to aid him, never mind any of the other Super Soldier feats we've seen in the show or films.

And that Walker being able to handle the Flag Smashers just as easily as Bucky did, even when fighting some of them 2-on-1, coupled with his ruthlessness and vibranium shield (which, as has been shown throughout the films, is great at absorbing super strong punches or kicks) is enough to net him a win after a hard fight. And, as I have already stated, without the shield I do see Crossbones winning. Now, others are free to disagree, but nothing I have seen on screen or in this thread makes me think otherwise about either position.

Well after the latest episode it seems my arguments no longer hold water. Either Walker is a massively better combatant than I gave him credit for, a better fighter than Steve even, or they seriously downgraded Bucky who used to be able to nearly match Steve.

I'm pretty sure it's the latter because the MCU seems to be intent on nerfing Bucky more with every appearance he makes, but it still makes my power scaling for this thread moot.

I think it's more a case of Walker being freakishly strong, even for a Super Soldier, likely due to already being pretty much a peak human in terms of athleticism even before taking the serum.

Because even ignoring skill, there were instances in that fight where Bucky was getting muscled around by Walker, even while using both his regular and vibranium arm, which is something Steve was never capable of during their bouts when Bucky had the old arm. Now, we could assume that the vibranium arm is much weaker than the old titanium one, but that doesn't really make sense from an in-universe perspective, especially considering Bucky was able to backhand through a solid steel beam with it during the fight with Walker.

I mean Walker even straight up ripped Sam's wings off, something Bucky needed to use his robo arm to do in the past. So, Walker is extremely strong, even for a Super Soldier. If you look at the fight, he mostly outmuscled them rather than outfought them. I mean he's clearly not a bad fighter, being able to trade blows with Bucky, but the strength advantage is what pushed it in his favour IMO.

Also, people use the fight against the Dora Milaje to argue against Walker, but tend to ignore the fact that A. Wakanda is a warrior nation. I mean they literally pick their ruler through ritual combat. B. The Dora Milaje are the elite of the elite when it comes to warriors in their country. C. The trio in question were sent after the guy who killed the previous king, so they were probably some of the most skilled and experienced fighters in their ranks. So, even though she was unnamed, chances are good that Walker was fighting one of the most formidable melee combatants in all of Wakanda. And D. Walker appeared to underestimate them, based on his attitude before the fight and his "they weren't even Super Soldiers" comment afterwards.

I always took it that Walker being "off the charts" as a normal guy meant that he just became super beast mode as a Super Soldier since Erskine said it enhanced everything. That's why not only is he visibly stronger than a normal super soldier, even one as good as Bucky, but his mental state is more disturbed. He even lied to Lamar's parents to their face.

It would also allow them to canonically show Walker is more powerful than Steve like the comics.

And just like that, US Agent went from struggling with Rumlow to potentially taking the win against Cap himself. Hell of a showing. Someone needs to make the inevitable Cap vs US Agent thread.

I'm back on the fence about this. Walker fought like an unskilled brawler during the finale. He's still crazy strong, being able to manhandle all the Flag Smashers he could get his hands on and easily knock Karli away when she tried to grab his shield (as well as haul back that armored truck that was going over the edge), but he fought so badly that it made me facepalm. I suppose one could argue that he let his emotions get the better of him being confronted by Lemar's killers and the comment by Karli about how his life didn't matter, but, man, he fought like shit. If he fought that way against Rumlow he'd get fuking skewered by Brock's blades. Now that I've watched the whole thing, it seems the writers are really bad at portraying consistent skill levels among the combatants.

Honestly, the person who looked the best was friggin' Batroc, who could hang with Sam despite him having the shield and a new Wakandan tech, presumably vibranium weave suit (which appears to be bulletproof). Also, Sam should have gotten his arms crushed by the truck, regardless of the winged suit, as his arms would have still needed to handle the strain of supporting the vehicle.

That was a pretty bad showing for Walker in that last episode. If he fights like that against Crossbones he'll get a knife through his face.

The power levels in this show are all over the place. It's times like these when I miss Whedon. I mean, the guy has issues, but at least him being a comicbook fan himself means he pays a bit more attention to power and skill consistency among characters.

Whoever the director of this show is has the same issues as the Russos: They'll sacrifice character consistency in order to make a good scene.

IDK. After thinking about it, I chalk up that last fight with Walker to anger. She told him his best friend died for nothing, and it looked pretty clear here was a bit out of it due to the serums mental effects (crazy eyes, covered in sweat). It looked like he was just trying to power/brute force through (it's also possible that he's truly just that incapable without a proper shield, but that would be kind of dumb IMO). There was no skill there unlike previous fights. IMO the benchmark for post serum walker is his fight with Falcon/WS.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
IDK. After thinking about it, I chalk up that last fight with Walker to anger. She told him his best friend died for nothing, and it looked pretty clear here was a bit out of it due to the serums mental effects (crazy eyes, covered in sweat). It looked like he was just trying to power/brute force through (it's also possible that he's truly just that incapable without a proper shield, but that would be kind of dumb IMO). There was no skill there unlike previous fights. IMO the benchmark for post serum walker is his fight with Falcon/WS.

It's going to be a pretty weak reasoning though, unless we're saying he wasn't angry when he fought Bucky/Sam. I mean, sure, we can definitely make excuses and reasons for it, but the fact that we even need to do so is already proof of the power inconsistency.

I'd say Walker is as strong as Cap and WS, but possibly less skilled overall.

I think they are all roughly on the same level though.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
IDK. After thinking about it, I chalk up that last fight with Walker to anger. She told him his best friend died for nothing, and it looked pretty clear here was a bit out of it due to the serums mental effects (crazy eyes, covered in sweat). It looked like he was just trying to power/brute force through (it's also possible that he's truly just that incapable without a proper shield, but that would be kind of dumb IMO). There was no skill there unlike previous fights. IMO the benchmark for post serum walker is his fight with Falcon/WS.

Walker should body

Originally posted by Mindset
I'd say Walker is as strong as Cap and WS, but possibly less skilled overall.

I think they are all roughly on the same level though.

Walker vs Bucky/Falcon is actually the outlier.

Originally posted by FrothByte
It's going to be a pretty weak reasoning though, unless we're saying he wasn't angry when he fought Bucky/Sam. I mean, sure, we can definitely make excuses and reasons for it, but the fact that we even need to do so is already proof of the power inconsistency.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I took it as the baseline because that episode was the first we saw of post-serum Walker. He was even fighting multiple Flag Smashers at the same time the entire time while Falcon and WS took on singles earlier in the episode. This last episode seemed like the outlier to me out of his three combat instances post-serum. I also can't call them all around the same level when two of them struggled tag teaming a single. He even had them both down and out at some point during that fight; straight up beaten. Placing them at similar levels or arguing either of them beyond Walker just doesn't make sense.

He was fending off multiple with his shield, but he never took any of them out. The shield is a huge advantage, especially when you're taking on multiple opponents.

Bucky took out Flag Smashers easier than Walker did in that ep.

Last episode isn't an outlier because it was similar to how he was handling the Flag Smashers when he was fighting with Bucky and Falcon, the difference is that he didn't have Cap's shield.

Pretty clear what the outlier is when you look at all of his fights. Pretty clear what the outlier is when you look at all of Bucky's and Falcon's feats too.

Originally posted by Mindset
It wasn't the first episode of post serum Walker.

He was fending off multiple with his shield, but he never took any of them out. The shield is a huge advantage, especially when you're taking on multiple opponents.

Bucky took out Flag Smashers easier than Walker did in that ep.

Last episode isn't an outlier because it was similar to how he was handling the Flag Smashers when he was fighting with Bucky and Falcon, the difference is that he didn't have Cap's shield.

Pretty clear what the outlier is when you look at all of his fights. Pretty clear what the outlier is when you look at all of Bucky's and Falcon's feats too.

Walker clearly had the Smasher he was fighting 1v1 overwhelmed before he started taking doubles (the guy he who's pole he bent in half in the stairwell). He didn't take him out but it was clear he wasn't worried about the dude since he was pretty casual during the encounter and then he let the guy run off only to pursue him at a leisurely pace just like when Falcon showed up in the beginning. He straight up stomped that guy 1v1, and he did it casually so it seems strange to act like he couldn't have ended the dude without breaking a sweat.

You also say "fend off" as if Walker was just barely managing. He was skilled and put out plenty of punishment in that last fight. He started off the big fight hitting two separate targets with the shield (helping Falcon with his by propelling the guy into Falcons attack), before starting his 1v2. Then he floored one before disarming the other and then going at it with both in an extended melee. Meanwhile, WS took out one in a fair fight and then blindsided another that was sprinting at Falcon. Falcon didn't take out anyone. Then Walker proceeded to chase down that Flag Smasher and beat him fair 1v1 before killing him. The dude was completely overwhelmed and couldn't even fend Walker off, though he definitely tried.

Walker stomped two targets in 1v1s and was the only one to be able to fight 2 at a time evenly. That's two similarly enhanced individuals. No matter which way you slice it, that's more impressive than Bucky beating a few in 1v1 (which Walker had no trouble doing either; in fact, Walker took out his singles more casually than Bucky did). Nothing in this fight suggested Walker was somehow lesser than WS. It definitely showed him to be above Falcon.

Then, not 10 minutes after this same encounter, Walker proceeded to fight both WS and Falcon at the same time. He had them both overwhelmed and out-skilled the majority of the fight. He just kept flooring them, and they didn't get a hit on him until Falcon sweeped him with the wings (which Walker rolled out of; you could barely call that a hit but I'm being generous here) late into the fight. There was even an instance where Walker had Bucky pinned against a surface with a shield, and he wasn't even struggling all that much while Bucky was clearly strained to the max and overpowered (this is after he tossed the shield so hard, Bucky got carried with it vs him straight up stopping the shield with one hand when Cap threw it in WS). Then he hammer tossed Bucky and straight up KOed him. From there, they got a few hits in, but only by blindsiding him and taking advantage when he was about to kill the other.

And you know what? Now that I've rewatched it, that last fight wasn't an much of an outlier for Walker either (mostly). Walker initially got overwhelmed by 4 Flag Smashers before being saved by Bucky. Then Bucky went over the edge followed by another Flag Smasher for yet another 1v1. At this point we got another 1v2 with Walker and two Flash Smashers. This time, he proceeded to straight up stomp and KO both of them singlehandedly and almost instantly with the $hitty shield. Then he spotted Karli and started pursuing her. He had her completely overwhelmed before she floored him with that Rey Mysterio wire move (I'd say this is the only real outlier for him, but they had to move the plot along).

Walker was consistently shown to be beyond Winter Soldier. He was about even fighting both WS and Falcon at the same time. Neither of them are on par with him.

There's no way I'm read all that.

C'mon...

Originally posted by Mindset
There's no way I'm read all that.

C'mon...