Originally posted by leonidasI, too, agree that those feats are quite valid, and Hulk would give the Atom a hard time. And Superman can hold Black Holes in his palm. But I don't think he can grab Eternity by the neck and choke her out. And I don't go "well, if that happened, anything I can imagine is valid, too!". It makes for a fun discussion regarding how we'd write scenarios to overcome certain situations [and I have zero problems with that], but that's about it. About 15 years ago I was adamant that Magneto would discorporate anybody since he can sever the sub-atomic bonds that keeps everything together, but then I realized I'm writing my own head canon into the arguments and I started to try to use the actual comics.
truth. ultimately i think it's because i make allowances in matches that you don't. i don't know how to explain some of the things hulk has done. i have no clue how to explain how superman does some of the sh!t he's done. i just don't think those types of wtf feats can be totally thrown away when there several examples of them. but the problem is they don't fit vs matches very well. i mean how the phukc do you explain superman holding a black hole, or hulk growing back to normal size because....he's angry. 😂but the feats have happened so i prefer to make the allowance for them. /shrug
Anyhow, this thread is clearly not for me, so I'll leave it at that. The Thor offense vs Hulk defense on panel feat-war thread would be great though 👆
I, too, agree that those feats are quite valid, and Hulk would give the Atom a hard time. And Superman can hold Black Holes in his palm. But I don't think he can grab Eternity by the neck and choke her out. And I don't go "well, if that happened, anything I can imagine is valid, too!". It makes for a fun discussion regarding how we'd write scenarios to overcome certain situations [and I have zero problems with that], but that's about it. About 15 years ago I was adamant that Magneto would discorporate anybody since he can sever the sub-atomic bonds that keeps everything together, but then I realized I'm writing my own head canon into the arguments and I started to try to use the actual comics.
yeah that would be a stretch only because he hasn't done ANYTHING like that on panel. next we'd have things that happen in narration only--ss making black holes in a person's head, for example. extremely unlikely that would ever happen. but with hulk he HAS adapted on panel, and he does have illogical feats. like superman. so imo those things need to be accounted for. that's why i typically like a spectrum approach to these matches. give counts out of 10 for wins, or percentages. flash femtosecond attack? would happen, but not often. hulk adapting? would happen, but not often. mags making him a statue forever? would happen, but not often, least not imo. on a spectrum you can give a sense of who would win and there's no need to illustrate how EVERY battle would go. when we speak about a single, specific battle, then it all becomes fanfic to me.
Originally posted by Philosophía. Sure man. Had a rough week but things getting under control. I’ll be able to make time when you guys are ready. 👆
I'm not talking about you specifically -- there's a certain guy here that keeps having Superman on his lips [and other chars] as if this is out of a bias or something. I'm being consistent.Well, we've reached a point where you think Superman can do something I do not, so there's that, lol.
Speaking of waking up, I will have the two matches soon sent to you. Be ready!
Originally posted by leonidasFlash has on panel moved at femto-second speeds. Thus, him being able to move that fast is proven, in comics.
flash femtosecond attack? would happen, but not often. hulk adapting? would happen, but not often.
His ability to do so is not in question. It's a fact.
This same does not apply to Hulk.
It's the difference between provable arguments, and fan-fiction with "not impossible" criteria.
You're doing an exercise in the latter, I prefer to have actual arguments to build a position.
You're conflating frequency [i.e. Flash using his FACT femtosecond speed] with actually having that ability [which Flash does, as a fact, and Hulk growing glands to counter electromagnetism not being a fact].
Maybe it's because Darksaint is on your mind, but these are not the same.
To oversimplify it:
If Darksaint comes here and says "Flash can move at femtosecond speed", he is right because that is exactly what he has been shown in comics. How frequently would do it is another discussion -- but the existence of him being able to do that is not up for discussion.
If you [leo] come here and say "Hulk grows glands to change his body composition to remove the Iron, make anti-gamma ray body and counter electromagnetism lifting him in the air" as you yourself have stated -- "he could alter his blood, for example? can i prove he could do so? laughing out loud of course not." it is not a fact.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not understanding that stance. flash has femtosecond on panel. hulk adapted on panel. how is it different?
Hulk has not altered his body composition on panel to counter electromagnetism. It is, in your own words, unprovable.
If what you want to say is that it's a fact that Hulk has 'adapted' and Flash has 'superspeed' sure. Superman has super-strength and US Agent does, too.
But in the way that Flash 'having superspeed' doesn't mean he can move in femtoseconds --- unless proven on panel that level of magnitude [which the panel actually proves, and makes it a fact], Hulk is not proven on panel [and again, as you admit it's not provable he can, only a "not impossible" scenario"] to alter his blood to counter electromagnetism.
One is unprovable fan-fiction, the other is a fact.
Originally posted by leonidas
i agree--that IS the difference. to say hulk might 'adapt' precludes a SPECIFIC example. but do you think that should mean we should discount the possibility of it happening celey?
Mmmmffff... Hard.. Hard to say yes or no given the examples on the scans posted. Some of those are outright cartoonish. I'd have to think on it more. Maybe see more examples.
Originally posted by carver9
If someone is holding you by your blood, what difference does flight make? I don't understand. You're being held by your blood which basically stops blood flow, etc... that alone should stop any thought of flight, right? Blood flow to the brain, heart, etc... so again, if Magneto put up a shield and just blood controlled everyone I've named, there's no defense to that, right?
Well, thats actually a good question Carver, not sure if Philo answered ita and I may be wrong but the simple fact that Superman can accelerate at speeds beyond the electrical synapses in Mags brain or simply generate more power. But this might actually be detrimental to Clark. Honestly not sure.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not understanding that stance. flash has femtosecond on panel. hulk adapted on panel. how is it different?
Because you're making a significantly larger leap. Hulk has adapted to stuff, just like Flash has moved at femtosecond speed. Hulk has not adapted by growing a gland to counter Magneto holding him up. Could he? It is comics but he's never done so on panel or anything similar.
You might complain about how specific it is.....but you're simultaneously saying he might adapt to something that specific. Doesn't matter how unlikely you say it is, you are arguing something possible based on nothing that actually happened, because he's adapted before. You're saying because he made gills to adapt underwater that he might have something to counter Magneto.
I can argue Doomsday adapting to and countering this because he's adapted to an energy being and killed him. Far shorter leap to think he could counter Magneto, for example.
Originally posted by leonidas
i agree--that IS the difference. to say hulk might 'adapt' precludes a SPECIFIC example. but do you think that should mean we should discount the possibility of it happening celey?
Well, are you trying to argue because it's possible, we should bring up that possibility in a vs debate to say Hulk wins?
It's the difference between powerSET and powerLEVEL.
Hulk may have the powerSET to adapt. But not the powerLEVEL.
Just like US Agent, Beast, and Hulk all have superstrength - powerSET. But we all agree that the degree to which they have this power differs, yes? And US Agent's degree of superstrength doesn't mean he can tangle with say, Colossus.
Hulk has....we all agree he has SOME degree of adaptation in terms of how he grows gills. He has it as a powerSET. Does he have the LEVEL to suddenly adapt to everything and anything? No. Just like US Agent can lift more than what a human can lift - doesn't mean he can lift everything and anything. Stilt and Carver have shown that actually, his 'adapting' powers are nowhere near as fast as, say, the way he ramps up in strength when angry.
Leo brings up 'well, he has done impossible things, so why not' - then on the same page, says 'well, OK, maybe not impossible things like lifting Mjolnir - that's TOO impossible!'
Can he break primary adamantium with pure strength? Can he lift Mjolnir with pure strength? Why can't he? He has done the impossible, so why are these two things 'impossible-ier'?
Why is turning his nipples into eyes somehow more farfetched than converting his blood to negate Magneto?
Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Well, thats actually a good question Carver, not sure if Philo answered ita and I may be wrong but the simple fact that Superman can accelerate at speeds beyond the electrical synapses in Mags brain or simply generate more power. But this might actually be detrimental to Clark. Honestly not sure.
There's also the fact that even without moving at super speed, someone who can fly powerfully enough to overcome this could just.....fly before Magneto could pull any if those arguments carter made off, unless you specify they stay still and do nothing for a minute, then try. Hulk can't do anything whether he decides to stay still or resist.
Originally posted by Delta1938If the force of flight is stronger than his ability to hold you in place, you can move. Otherwise, you stay in place. Namor's flight I don't think is powerful enough, I'd say, to propulse him, for example.
There's also the fact that even without moving at super speed, someone who can fly powerfully enough to overcome this could just.....fly before Magneto could pull any if those arguments carter made off, unless you specify they stay still and do nothing for a minute, then try. Hulk can't do anything whether he decides to stay still or resist.
If somebody suspends me in the air by reversing gravity or by grabbing my intestines, I cannot move since I have zero leverage. If you give me flight, I can move towards my opponent as long as my intestines are durable enough not to get crushed by the tug of war between my flight and the intestine grab.
Only carver is too limited to not understand this.
Originally posted by Philosophía
If the force of flight is stronger than his ability to hold you in place, you can move. Otherwise, you stay in place. Namor's flight I don't think is powerful enough, I'd say, to propulse him, for example.If somebody suspends me in the air by reversing gravity or by grabbing my intestines, I cannot move since I have zero leverage. If you give me flight, I can move towards my opponent as long as my intestines are durable enough not to get crushed by the tug of war between my flight and the intestine grab.
Only carver is too limited to not understand this.
I was referring to carter bringing up stuff that's physically incapacitating, like stopping blood to the brain, assuming Magneto had enough time to do this. Not on the flight itself.