Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
So you believe Banner was using hulk even though damn near every other line from him was how hes cursed with the hulk...
I believe what the MCU creators discussed in an interview fully explaining it and saying he wasn't afraid. Also despite feeling "cursed", he sure pulled the Hulk card every single time he needed someone to get punched. Did you not even watch Ragnarok or Endgame?
Originally posted by ShadowFyreThe only reason Thanos was able to break the Hulk lock was because he was up against a wall to give him a sturdy support to thrust against and those key strikes broke Hulk's stream of continuity luckily for Thanos, if that fight had dragged on it would have been a steepening uphill battle for Thanos
What are you talking about? The movie made it absolutely clear that Hulk was NOT stronger than Thanos. You know, how Thanos removed Hulk from his advantageous choking position and then downed him with a few blows.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Always found it weird how Spidey clowned Bucky and Falcon then almost got killed by Vulture.
Honestly, Spider-Man should beat most of the people he lost to onscreen. Barring the fight with Steve, he actually came across a lot more competent in Civil War than he did in his first solo film IMO. He was actually pretty good overall in Civil War (except the Cap fight) whereas he was constantly bumbling around in Homecoming. Not just while in combat, but generally crashing into things and destroying property and such due to his clumsiness.
Luckily, the writers realised that they can't keep doing that 5 movies in with Far From Home and actually made him a lot more competent than shown previously.
Originally posted by KingD19
I believe what the MCU creators discussed in an interview fully explaining it and saying he wasn't afraid. Also despite feeling "cursed", he sure pulled the Hulk card every single time he needed someone to get punched. Did you not even watch Ragnarok or Endgame?
Or Age of Ultron. "Is it a code green?" Get pulled into a fight and then have BW shut him down again with her "lullaby". Or even the first Avengers movie, when Banner needed Hulk to take out the leviathan.
Originally posted by Robtard
Bucky is becoming a jobber.
Well, as I previously explained, I personally don't think he fits the criteria just yet. That being said, I have a bad feeling he is going to job pretty hard during the finale to make Sam, Walker and Karli shine. Hopefully I am wrong, but I just have this feeling that I can't shake.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, as I previously explained, I personally don't think he fits the criteria just yet. That being said, I have a bad feeling he is going to job pretty hard during the finale to make Sam, Walker and Karli shine. Hopefully I am wrong, but I just have this feeling that I can't shake.
Technically he's already done that. Jobbed to make Sam, Walker and Karli shine. Hopefully he doesn't do it some more.
Originally posted by ShadowFyre
From a hugely disadvantageous position at that.
Not necessarily. If you use your shoulder and back muscles along with your arms, you don't really need that much of a strength advantage to break a front choke hold.
But anyway, the Russos have said on more than one occasion that Thanos edges the Hulk out in strength, so kind of a moot point. Barring characters like Surtur and probably Ego and Dormammu, Thanos is likely the physically strongest character shown in the MCU to date. Even Captain Marvel had to use her flight to help her against him.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Technically he's already done that. Jobbed to make Sam, Walker and Karli shine. Hopefully he doesn't do it some more.
What's happened so far can still be explained away though. But I have a nasty feeling he's going to job badly in the finale, mainly to make new Captain America Sam stand out. Probably get beat up by Batroc or Karli or something and then have to get rescued by Sam. I really hope I am wrong though.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
What's happened so far can still be explained away though. But I have a nasty feeling he's going to job badly in the finale, mainly to make new Captain America Sam stand out. Probably get beat up by Batroc or Karli or something and then have to get rescued by Sam. I really hope I am wrong though.
The way I think about it is (or at least the way I used to think about it is): Bucky, T'Challa and Steve Rogers are all roughly in the same level. Or at least they're supposed to be.
And if we swapped Bucky out for T'Challa or Steve Rogers in TFATWS, I'm pretty sure T'Challa and Steve Rogers would have performed a lot better. Would have been treated a lot better than Bucky.
Even if we say Steve Rogers is holding back. Even if we removed T'Challa's advanced armor.
We can come up with numerous explanations, but I doubt the MCU would have ever treated Rogers or T'Challa the way they've treated Bucky.
Originally posted by FrothByte
The way I think about it is (or at least the way I used to think about it is): Bucky, T'Challa and Steve Rogers are all roughly in the same level. Or at least they're supposed to be.And if we swapped Bucky out for T'Challa or Steve Rogers in TFATWS, I'm pretty sure T'Challa and Steve Rogers would have performed a lot better. Would have been treated a lot better than Bucky.
Even if we say Steve Rogers is holding back. Even if we removed T'Challa's advanced armor.
We can come up with numerous explanations, but I doubt the MCU would have ever treated Rogers or T'Challa the way they've treated Bucky.
It would depend on their mental state IMO. If Steve or T'Challa was afraid of reverting into some psycho monster and potentially harming or killing the wrong person, they might also have trouble knowing how much to hold themselves back during a fight. It's really impossible to say for certain, and considering what canonically happened with Steve in the MCU (becoming a Joe Biden lookalike) and the death of Chadwick Boseman, we'll never get a clear answer on it.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It would depend on their mental state IMO. If Steve or T'Challa was afraid of reverting into some psycho monster and potentially harming or killing the wrong person, they might also have trouble knowing how much to hold themselves back during a fight. It's really impossible to say for certain, and considering what canonically happened with Steve in the MCU (becoming a Joe Biden lookalike) and the death of Chadwick Boseman, we'll never get a clear answer on it.
Like I said, we can come up with a number of explanations. The writers can come up with a number of explanations. But I doubt the MCU would have ever gone that route with Rogers or T'Challa.
Also as far as mental state goes, a good chunk of your fighting skill is based on muscle memory and instinct. Those should still kick in even when Bucky isn't going for the kill. The drop in Bucky's fighting skill is far bigger than what you'd expect from a mere change in mental state.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Like I said, we can come up with a number of explanations. The writers can come up with a number of explanations. But I doubt the MCU would have ever gone that route with Rogers or T'Challa.Also as far as mental state goes, a good chunk of your fighting skill is based on muscle memory and instinct. Those should still kick in even when Bucky isn't going for the kill. The drop in Bucky's fighting skill is far bigger than what you'd expect from a mere change in mental state.
Well, maybe, maybe not. Seeing as Steve and T'Challa are usually the main protagonists when they're out and about, it's probably a bit different. But it's still speculation either way.
And a poor mental state and self-doubt can still cause hesitation at the wrong moment, which could be detrimental in a fight. And I don't really see it as that much of a drop, at least not so far.
First fight with the Flag Smashers he didn't know what he was up against. And even then, they had to gang up on him. Then he beat those random mooks in Madripoor without breaking a sweat. He wasn't trying to fight Ayo and never even threw a punch at her IIRC. He even asked her whether they could "talk about this", which clearly shows he wasn't looking to beat anyone up. Then he stomped multiple Flag Smashers without much effort. And then got beat up by Walker. But, as I already mentioned, Walker just appears to me (and to a number of other posters here) to be extra amped as a Super Soldier.
But anyway, we've already been through this whole argument, so guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Nothing wrong with having different opinions or interpretations of what happens onscreen. Besides, as I said, for the purposes of an actual Versus match discussion, Bucky being screwed up mentally isn't going to work as a defense, as that's just what he's like now, in-character, which is how we debate combatants. So, unless he gets better showings during the finale, Bucky's going to have a rough time in future KMC match-ups.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Not necessarily. If you use your shoulder and back muscles along with your arms, you don't really need that much of a strength advantage to break a front choke hold.But anyway, the Russos have said on more than one occasion that Thanos edges the Hulk out in strength, so kind of a moot point. Barring characters like Surtur and probably Ego and Dormammu, Thanos is likely the physically strongest character shown in the MCU to date. Even Captain Marvel had to use her flight to help her against him.
Hela. And it wasn't just that he broke them, he was holding his arms apart while smiling. But moot point like you said
Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Hela. And it wasn't just that he broke them, he was holding his arms apart while smiling. But moot point like you said
To me, he looked more like he was grimacing from effort, especially if you compare it to other scenes where he is genuinely smiling, like when he retrieves an Infinity Stone. Because while the Russos did say that Thanos is stronger, there's not a giant gap, at least according to them. According to their comments, the deciding factor was Thanos being a much, much more skilled and capable combatant than Hulk. I posted a link to the one interview a little while back in another thread. Anyway though, bottom line is Thanos is stronger than the Hulk, regardless of the gap size.
I wanted to ask previously though, why do you think Thanos was jobbing against Carol? I mean despite her exploiting her energy aura and flight, Thanos was still able to adapt on the fly to knock her ass out for the rest of the fight.
Originally posted by KingD19
I believe what the MCU creators discussed in an interview fully explaining it and saying he wasn't afraid. Also despite feeling "cursed", he sure pulled the Hulk card every single time he needed someone to get punched. Did you not even watch Ragnarok or Endgame?
They can say what they want. Did they explain this in the film? No they did not 😆
Any BS excuse they spewed out was because despite the fact thanos is able to beat hulk hes not about to beat the hulk at full strength AND the avengers without him simply blasting them away with the stones.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Not necessarily. If you use your shoulder and back muscles along with your arms, you don't really need that much of a strength advantage to break a front choke hold.
That's not how it workd at all. You would be using your rear delts, which are generally not that strong.