Omnipotence vs. Omniscience

Originally posted by leonidas
technically speaking the omniscient would have the edge if they are in possession of their abilities before the match starts. he would know beyond a doubt exactly what the omnipotent was going to do. with truly infinite knowledge, he should also know how to counter whatever the omnipotent person was planning. if his knowledge is infinite in a true sense, he would know and understand the most fundamental nature of reality. and he'd know how to manipulate it in ways we as non-all-knowing debaters can't even imagine. i think the omniscient here is being equated to midnighter who runs through all scenarios and there IS no winning situation because midnighter doesn't have the power to manufacture a win. with absolute knowledge (and awareness) there is, literally, NOTHING he wouldn't know. including how to beat a human with infinite power. such power would be limited by a human's imagination. if we're simply saying that the omniscient's knowledge can't be acted on because he doesn't know how.....well you can see the problem with that.

it's a strange discussion for sure but i could see the omniscient winning this. if we don't limit what his knowledge may allow him to do. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
technically speaking the omniscient would have the edge if they are in possession of their abilities before the match starts. he would know beyond a doubt exactly what the omnipotent was going to do. with truly infinite knowledge, he should also know how to counter whatever the omnipotent person was planning. if his knowledge is infinite in a true sense, he would know and understand the most fundamental nature of reality. and he'd know how to manipulate it in ways we as non-all-knowing debaters can't even imagine. i think the omniscient here is being equated to midnighter who runs through all scenarios and there IS no winning situation because midnighter doesn't have the power to manufacture a win. with absolute knowledge (and awareness) there is, literally, NOTHING he wouldn't know. including how to beat a human with infinite power. such power would be limited by a human's imagination. if we're simply saying that the omniscient's knowledge can't be acted on because he doesn't know how.....well you can see the problem with that.

it's a strange discussion for sure but i could see the omniscient winning this. if we don't limit what his knowledge may allow him to do. /shrug

👆

This is what I said earlier. In some fiction, having omniscience (or even increased intelligence) automatically gives one the ability to become omnipotent (the movie Lucy for example).

At the very minimum, the omniscient can distract the omnipotent at the bell (he knows exactly what to say or do that will cause the omnipotent to pause). This will buy omniscient time to activate power or manipulating the omnipotent into DOING something that helps the omniscient.

Originally posted by h1a8
👆

This is what I said earlier. In some fiction, having omniscience (or even increased intelligence) automatically gives one the ability to become omnipotent (the movie Lucy for example).

At the very minimum, the omniscient can distract the omnipotent at the bell (he knows exactly what to say or do that will cause the omnipotent to pause). This will buy omniscient time to activate power or manipulating the omnipotent into DOING something that helps the omniscient.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Surely the all powerful would have omniscience as a function of his absolute might. His by definition power over everything there was, is and ever will be. mmm

Originally posted by h1a8
👆

This is what I said earlier. In some fiction, having omniscience (or even increased intelligence) automatically gives one the ability to become omnipotent (the movie Lucy for example).

At the very minimum, the omniscient can distract the omnipotent at the bell (he knows exactly what to say or do that will cause the omnipotent to pause). This will buy omniscient time to activate power or manipulating the omnipotent into DOING something that helps the omniscient.

At the MAXIMUM, you mean.

OP clearly stated NO OTHER POWERS for the omniscient, lol. Zero powers. Powerless.

yeah i get what you're saying ds. and you too whirly. of course omnipotence would allow for omniscience. except.....the op says the omnipotent can NOT attain omniscience (or at least that's my understanding of the thread--a strictly NON omniscient understanding.... lol) it makes no sense, but there it is.

to ds's point about being powerless--that really makes no sense, if that IS the intent of the thread. if it is, stop reading here. lol

what i mean is, when dr strange, a purely human guy, utters a spell, i think we'd all agree it is his KNOWLEDGE of the spell that allows for the effect. it has nothing to do with 'innate power' on strange's part. anyone who has KNOWLEDGE of the spell can cause the effect. KNOWING the spell IS power. how does one separate that? 😕 it sounds like what you're saying ds (as you understand the thread) is that you think the omniscient in this case would know the spell, say the spell and......nothing would happen once he said it?

if that's the actual intent of the thread, wellllllllll 😂 sorry i stopped in and of course you're right, the omniscient cannot possibly win and the thread goes from being mildly thought provoking to 100% pointless.

for some reason i guess it's easier for me to see knowledge as translating to power, than power translating to knowledge? not sure that makes sense. the omniscient for example would know the word of god--he IS god (in part). he would also know how to ENACT said word. would an omnipotent KNOW the word? well, not in this thread. but.....ANY word he said would BE the word of god! 😂

if we allow for the true values of each, wouldn't they/shouldn't they amount to the same thing? if your interpretation is right regarding the thread ds, then of course all the knowledge in infinity is useless if it can't actually be used.

if we allow for the possibility of knowledge being power, the only possible distinction i can see is that while the omnipotent would act with the power of god, he wouldn't be able to act in a truly infinite number of ways because he lacks the knowledge to do so. the omniscient should know how to enact the word of god, AND know an infinite number of ways to use it. by that reasoning, the omniscient should have the slightest of edges here. shrug

Hello, Elusive Leoni

Originally posted by LordGod
In a forum fight, what would be more useful?

A character with true omnipotence (absent omniscience) or a character with true omniscience, but no other powers?

He's powerless.

I note that you're posting now that Canada is arresting the truckers though sneer hope you're well though!

With regards to the spells, sure - but just knowing them isn't enough, hence Reed not using magic, for example. He doesn't understand it, but he can read a spell just as well as anyone. In DC, you need the homo magi gene to use magic, as another example. In Marvel, the entities who give you power (Agammotto, Cytorrak etc) need to willingly give you their power. Reed tried to learn magic from Strange, but because of his ego, just because he knew the words and performed the hand seals correctly didn't mean anything. Strange was chosen, in any case - he wasn't just an average joe.

In that scan, Strange explains that the powers that be have a say in who uses their energies. Just because our Omniscient can say the right words etc, doesn't mean he can use them. In this instance, it was Reed's ego - but who is to say it isn't some other whim next time?

In any case, it's all by the by. OP just wants an average guy with no powers but all the knowledge, and a guy with all the powers but average (?) knowledge. And asks who is more useful in a forum fight.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah i get what you're saying ds. and you too whirly. of course omnipotence would allow for omniscience. except.....the op says the omnipotent can NOT attain omniscience (or at least that's my understanding of the thread--a strictly NON omniscient understanding.... lol) it makes no sense, but there it is.

to ds's point about being powerless--that really makes no sense, if that IS the intent of the thread. if it is, stop reading here. lol

what i mean is, when dr strange, a purely human guy, utters a spell, i think we'd all agree it is his KNOWLEDGE of the spell that allows for the effect. it has nothing to do with 'innate power' on strange's part. anyone who has KNOWLEDGE of the spell can cause the effect. KNOWING the spell IS power. how does one separate that? 😕 it sounds like what you're saying ds (as you understand the thread) is that you think the omniscient in this case would know the spell, say the spell and......nothing would happen once he said it?

if that's the actual intent of the thread, wellllllllll 😂 sorry i stopped in and of course you're right, the omniscient cannot possibly win and the thread goes from being mildly thought provoking to 100% pointless.

for some reason i guess it's easier for me to see knowledge as translating to power, than power translating to knowledge? not sure that makes sense. the omniscient for example would know the word of god--he IS god (in part). he would also know how to ENACT said word. would an omnipotent KNOW the word? well, not in this thread. but.....ANY word he said would BE the word of god! 😂

if we allow for the true values of each, wouldn't they/shouldn't they amount to the same thing? if your interpretation is right regarding the thread ds, then of course all the knowledge in infinity is useless if it can't actually be used.

if we allow for the possibility of knowledge being power, the only possible distinction i can see is that while the omnipotent would act with the power of god, he wouldn't be able to act in a truly infinite number of ways because he lacks the knowledge to do so. the omniscient should know how to enact the word of god, AND know an infinite number of ways to use it. by that reasoning, the omniscient should have the slightest of edges here. shrug

In the case of Dr. Strange chanting incantations, that's just a way for him to command- or channel the energies of magical beings to warp reality for him in some way.

But even presupposing that these entities exist and would side with the pansophic incantor, they have no chance of subduing their almighty opponent. No attack they can generate will faze him, and there's no prison they can set up that he can't break out from.

The only way for the pansophic to win is if the almighty is set up in such a way that he can't exercise his powers, for instance an almighty stone (stones aren't conscious). But would he then be considered almighty? Most would say no, because having a power is implies the power to exercise that power.

But if that's not convincing, a pansophic (but impotent) stone may sit ontop of all the answers in the universe, but he'd have no way of bringing about any change.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Here, Strange needed to lock his debts in his cellar, and even then, there was still a price to pay - ever since his beginnings.

Also, bonus scan showing he has magic in his blood. It's not just 'knowing things':

And I am not even on issue #12 yet lmao.

Plus, there is a cost to using magic.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Plus, there is a cost to using magic.

But the problem is that we presuppose that the almighty is the greatest force there is, and to a considerable degree (superceded only in theory by a proper omnipotent) so there's no force that can be commanded that can contend with the almighty.

if he's omniscient he is in effect part of an all powerful entity. why would there be cost? who would he pay...? he has GOD's knowledge. because in part he IS god.

but strange was only an example of someone turning knowledge into power. we know from comics and manga characters that godlike knowledge of math for example can lead to the ability to completely alter reality. an omniscient would by definition be able to access all knowledge instantly. if he mentally recited a math equation that was meant to deconstruct reality and that could be used by anyone (if they had the knowledge), you feel the premise here is....the equation would do nothing? if that's true the thread is pointless and no fun to discuss.

if the omniscient can use effects derived from his knowledge it's something else altogether and a more interesting conversation. though one that i'm already moving on from lol

The omniscient convinces the omnipotent to kill himself since he's the only power big enough to destroy an omnipotent

Originally posted by leonidas
if he's omniscient he is in effect part of an all powerful entity. why would there be cost? who would he pay...? he has GOD's knowledge. because in part he IS god.

Originally posted by leonidas
but strange was only an example of someone turning knowledge into power. we know from comics and manga characters that godlike knowledge of math for example can lead to the ability to completely alter reality. an omniscient would by definition be able to access all knowledge instantly. if he mentally recited a math equation that was meant to deconstruct reality and that could be used by anyone (if they had the knowledge), you feel the premise here is....the equation would do nothing? if that's true the thread is pointless and no fun to discuss.

if the omniscient can use effects derived from his knowledge it's something else altogether and a more interesting conversation. though one that i'm already moving on from lol

It's a bit like Batman versus Superman. The only way this is a fair fight is if there are external means for Batman to hurt Superman. In Dark Knight Returns we get nukes, kryptonite and red sun radiation, not to mention a fair bit of hesitation on Superman's part.

But suppose that your opponent doesn't have any weaknesses to abuse, and that nuclear explosions, magic, and cosmic forces are all equally powerless against him. At that point the fight is going to be settled at the whim of the almighty.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
At the MAXIMUM, you mean.

OP clearly stated NO OTHER POWERS for the omniscient, lol. Zero powers. Powerless.

And even then, it's pretty limited over 500m, and relies heavily on the omnipotent letting him do so.

In short, being omnipotent is more useful.

Omniscience with full processing power is arguably better than gimped Omnipotence

Originally posted by Bentley
Omniscience with full processing power is arguably better than gimped Omnipotence

I mean, if you already have full knowledge of every experience there is to live and all the possibilities ever what is the point of ever carrying them out? How can you improve your perspective and self in any valid way shape of form by adding limited omnipotence on top of true omniscience?

You can essentially run perfect simulations of everything at that level of performance

Originally posted by Bentley
I mean, if you already have full knowledge of every experience there is to live and all the possibilities ever what is the point of ever carrying them out? How can you improve your perspective and self in any valid way shape of form by adding limited omnipotence on top of true omniscience?

You can essentially run perfect simulations of everything at that level of performance

YouTube video

With omniscience you can find out what creates the greatest happiness and run that simulation over and over (causing yourself to forget things temporarily just to achieve it).