As I said from the start, it's paradoxical. I mean, one cannot have fully mastered infinite power without also possessing infinite knowledge... But per the stips of this thread, that seems to be the intent.
Therefore we are essentially left with "normal guy who can do anything he wants" vs. "normal guy who knows everything."
I think where people are getting pedantic, is the last part of that.
Omnipotent = a normal guy who can do anything he wants.
Omniscient = a normal guy who knows everything.
So what is being clung to, is that the omnipotent has to register that he wants to do something, before he can do it, as opposed to the omniscient who starts the match already fully upgraded.
Whereas in fairness, it should be either both sides being normal (so the omniscient can know anything he wants to know, but has to realise it first), or they both start upgraded (where the omnipotent already has superspeed and has durability levels through the roof without needing to 'activate' his powers - he just *is*).
If you look at the forum rules, then generic planning before the bell rings is allowed, but conscious activation of a character's power is not.
So for example, before the match starts, the omniscient guy might know that the only way for him to potentially win is to recite the ALE right away... But he could not begin doing so until the bell rang.
Flip side, the omnipotent guy would also know(thanks to basic knowledge) who he's up against, and could therefore have a strategy in place as well. So if he's just a normal guy, then he'd start the match as such... But when the bell rings, all he has to do is think "that guy can't win", or "dump him in a star", or "turn him into a pickle", or "stop time around him", or simply "die".
...I still don't see how any of that can be countered by the omniscient guy -- even in a quickdraw scenario. /shrug
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Plus, we both agree sound based attacks are not the way to go. Which is what I (also implicitly) said on the 14th of Feb - that he still needs to fire it off, as it were, and before he could complete his command, the omnipotent would still be faster.But yes, agreed, it was a trivial (if diverting enough, at least for me) debate. Beatboks and Stoic tried to argue that the omniscient would give himself powers, or have extra prep/materiel ready, you tried to argue the ALE (which, to give you credit, would ordinarily be a smart move) but tried smooshing and conflating various versions of the ALE (I *think* the latest interpretation - and hence, the version used in forums - was that one needed to recite the long equation, plus one needed to have DS in existence etc etc), and now h1 is trying to argue based on his own stupidity, so I dunno....it seems that omnipotence is more useful in a forum fight.
I mean, we could have it so the omnipotent guy has processing speed equal to Wally at his fastest, or perhaps Jay Garrick - so not infinitely fast, but still super super fast. Thus, no omniscience, but still so fast he could run home and change his clothes and eat his dinner whilst reading every book in the library on the way home, before the omniscient guy can even get the first syllable out of his mouth.
Omnipotent has to will whatever power he wants to happen.
He's not superfast to start with or super durable, etc.
Either
1. The omniscient sees no possible way of winning (the omnipotent is smart enough)
Or
2. The omniscient sees a way to win but it starts as distracting the omnipotent to buy himself time.
Well it will be 1.
Originally posted by Galan007
If you look at the forum rules, then generic planning before the bell rings is allowed, but conscious activation of a character's power is not.So for example, before the match starts, the omniscient guy might know that the only way for him to potentially win is to recite the ALE right away... But he could not begin doing so until the bell rang.
Flip side, the omnipotent guy would also know(thanks to basic knowledge) who he's up against, and could therefore have a strategy in place as well. So if he's just a normal guy, then he'd start the match as such... But when the bell rings, all he has to do is think "that guy can't win", or "dump him in a star", or "turn him into a pickle", or "stop time around him", or simply "die".
...I still don't see how any of that can be countered by the omniscient guy -- even in a quickdraw scenario. /shrug
The Omnipotent starts the match with a strat in place. As soon as the match starts, think 'die'. No distractions. Don't let himself get put off.
Over a distance of 500m, I don't see what the omniscient could do anyway, even with distractions.
@Galan: Conscious actions, sure. But durability and immunity to things are inherent, without conscious thought - Superman doesn't think 'better become bulletproof!' or Juggy etc etc. Same with reflex speed.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well it will be 1.The Omnipotent starts the match with a strat in place. As soon as the match starts, think 'die'. No distractions. Don't let himself get put off.
Over a distance of 500m, I don't see what the omniscient could do anyway, even with distractions.
@Galan: Conscious actions, sure. But durability and immunity to things are inherent, without conscious thought - Superman doesn't think 'better become bulletproof!' or Juggy etc etc. Same with reflex speed.
The omnipotent might not start the fight with a plan in place that involves acting before the omniscient (thinking quick draw). He might believe that having knowledge (without power) isn't enough to warrant such a response. Some would be curious to what the omnipotent would do and allow him to act first (like in actual fiction). Like I said, this fight depends on the intelligence and creativity of the omnipotent. Arguing otherwise is a fallacy.
Originally posted by h1a8
The omnipotent might not start the fight with a plan in place that involves acting before the omniscient (thinking quick draw). He might believe that having knowledge (without power) isn't enough to warrant such a response. Some would be curious to what the omnipotent would do and allow him to act first (like in actual fiction). Like I said, this fight depends on the intelligence and creativity of the omnipotent. Arguing otherwise is a fallacy.
Which means he isn't omnipotent. Does Superman need to will his durability to be on?
If he is truly omnipotent (and starts the fight as such), even death would not mean his loss. Juggernaut doesn't have to will his immunity to poisons to be on, Logan doesn't need to will his HF to be on - it is on by default.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But your argument depends on the omnipotent starting the fight with no powers.Which means he isn't omnipotent. Does Superman need to will his durability to be on?
If he is truly omnipotent (and starts the fight as such), even death would not mean his loss. Juggernaut doesn't have to will his immunity to poisons to be on, Logan doesn't need to will his HF to be on - it is on by default.
He has the power to will anything into existence.
Omnipotence requires making anything possible happen. That means it wasn't in existence prior.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Very true.
@Galan: Conscious actions, sure. But durability and immunity to things are inherent, without conscious thought - Superman doesn't think 'better become bulletproof!' or Juggy etc etc. Same with reflex speed.
But I'm assuming that both of these guys are just normal humans: one with access to infinite power, and the other with access to infinite knowledge. That said, my interpretation of the stips is that the omnipotent guy starts off the match with the physical attributes of a regular person... And if he wants to be anything different, then he'd need to will it so.
Same thing with the omniscient guy: he's just a regular dude who knows everything. So just because he might know how to properly recite the ALE, for example, doesn't necessarily mean he'd be able to use it on the same level as a being like Darkseid... Because again: knowledge aside, he's just an average joe. He's not a metaphysical energy-being.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXHe technically isn't fully omnipotent here, as his ability to attain omniscience(which would normally be a corollary of omnipotence) was gimped by the thread starter.
this whole discussion is just an illogical paradox.by definition you cannot beat a true omnipotent being unless they ALLOW themselves to be beaten. their power is absolute. so if the ale was able to take hold of the omnipotent person, it would mean they werent omnipotent to begin with.
Apparently he starts off as a normal guy...Like you or I...But he has the ability to do absolutely anything(sans becoming omniscient) when the bell rings.
Originally posted by Galan007
He technically isn't fully omnipotent here, as his ability to attain omniscience(which would normally be a corollary of omnipotence) was gimped by the thread starter.Apparently he starts off as a normal guy...Like you or I...But he has the ability to do absolutely anything(sans becoming omniscient) when the bell rings.
ahhhhhh I hate you gallllllanannnnnchan
technically speaking the omniscient would have the edge if they are in possession of their abilities before the match starts. he would know beyond a doubt exactly what the omnipotent was going to do. with truly infinite knowledge, he should also know how to counter whatever the omnipotent person was planning. if his knowledge is infinite in a true sense, he would know and understand the most fundamental nature of reality. and he'd know how to manipulate it in ways we as non-all-knowing debaters can't even imagine. i think the omniscient here is being equated to midnighter who runs through all scenarios and there IS no winning situation because midnighter doesn't have the power to manufacture a win. with absolute knowledge (and awareness) there is, literally, NOTHING he wouldn't know. including how to beat a human with infinite power. such power would be limited by a human's imagination. if we're simply saying that the omniscient's knowledge can't be acted on because he doesn't know how.....well you can see the problem with that.
it's a strange discussion for sure but i could see the omniscient winning this. if we don't limit what his knowledge may allow him to do. /shrug