Originally posted by h1a8
Thats because zoom was already moving and perceiving events at light speed or beyond. Fast characters dont always operate with speed and perceptions. But in this case we have proof of it.
You dont know what level he was perceiving at. You dont know he was paying attention to her lasso.
Originally posted by h1a8
I do. It was, at minimum, near light speed.
Show me where that's stated.
There's zero indication WW moved at lightspeed in those scans.
Deflecting Darkseids Omega Beams was a more convincing feat of movement speed.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Street levelers have plenty of examples of dodging lazers after fire as well. As opposed to just aim dodging every single instance.
They've obviously anticipated the attack.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I agree thats at least equally as impressive. But no ones really denied Wonder Womans speed capabilities. I am however doubting she would speed blitz someone as fast and as strong as He-Man.
But He-Man hasn't shown any speed feats to show he is in the same tier as her. I mean, I will address the feat being used in my reply to your next post:
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I mean street levellers can dodge laser shots, the same way theyd dodge a gun shot. Anticipate their opponents moves. With He-Man though that was pretty impossible. And it is much harder against Eye beams if the user isnt holding back.As for crossovers, pretty sure that whole He-Man series was published by DC. As for Superman holding back, he clearly gave no warning as to what kind of attack he was going to do, and even then he would hold back on the power of the HV, not its speed.
My scans specifically showed Cap only moving AFTER the lasers were fired. Same with Logan. I mean, with Bats its even easier to show:
Superman has actually fired at Batman, and he manages to move his entire body out of the way before it hits.
But my issues with the showing you are using, are:
1. It is a crossover. I understand that it was published by DC, but its still 'DC Universe VS Masters of the Universe'. DC vs Marvel was published by both companies; doesn't make it usable for both companies. Same with JLA/Avengers.
2. It was a magical clone of Superman. You can argue all you want how good a copy it was, it was still a copy. Jane Foster explicitly got given the magical power of Thor; doesn't mean her feats cross to Thor and vice-versa.
3. It was a clone of n52 Superman, who was weaker.
4. He was still holding back, a per his words. I mean, you can argue about whether he can hold back the speed of his HV, but we're talking about comic books here. Maybe he held back by aiming at He-Man's sword, so that it wouldn't be a killing blow, or hurt He-Man.
Originally posted by Diesldude
cmon dark Saint that is being dishonest. You’re saying Flash and Superman were chased by the omega beams. Well wasn’t WW chased and tagged?Flash and Superman tried to evade and I’m sure if they had the bracelets, they would have easily deflected the beams too. If we’re going by the chart dc released, WW is faster but if He-man goes Main stream then idk he has Super Strength on par with or just below Superman and his superspeed should be too.
When masters of the universe tussled with JLA he-man was fighting the big dog Superman and not WW.
Dishonest? Look, you know me - I am Carver9ing my own path here.
I am not saying Flash/Supes couldn't have done the same - my point is simple:
DarthThor: Look how fast He-man is, he deflected at close range eyebeam attacks without knowing his enemies' full capabilities!
DS: Look, WW has something very similar - with 2 differences: 1, her opponents' eyebeams are able to change direction, and 2, we know in that comic how fast those beams were - they were chasing Flash and Supes and hit Supes. They had both insane travel AND reflex speed (look at how they kept up with Flash), in the same comic.
Nowhere did I say WW is faster than those 2. No need to accuse me of being dishonest.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
But again hows is hat different to Spider-Man tagging Quicksilver when QS was moving around at his top speeds ?You expect a narrative to state He-Man deflected the HV in a Nano second, but you dont expect any narration or visual cue that WW moved at light speed.
I need to see the example of Spidey vs Quicksilver before I even respond, I think I know which one you speak of and if it's the same example it's not remotely an apple's to apple's comparison.
Quicksilver depending on the decade was slow as hell. More than slow enough for Spidey, who has legitimate lightning timing feats, to be able to land a hit on.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But He-Man hasn't shown any speed feats to show he is in the same tier as her. I mean, I will address the feat being used in my reply to your next post:
That doesn't mean she's blitzing him. Unless you can show her blitzing other opponents with vast superhuman speed like he has displayed.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My scans specifically showed Cap only moving AFTER the lasers were fired. Same with Logan. I mean, with Bats its even easier to show:Superman has actually fired at Batman, and he manages to move his entire body out of the way before it hits.
I mean that's comic book logic. Which is also why WW throwing a Lasso doesn't necessarily reflect her speed.
That said the HV was shown there moving in slow motion. And Batman knows his opponent.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But my issues with the showing you are using, are:1. It is a crossover. I understand that it was published by DC, but its still 'DC Universe VS Masters of the Universe'. DC vs Marvel was published by both companies; doesn't make it usable for both companies. Same with JLA/Avengers.
2. It was a magical clone of Superman. You can argue all you want how good a copy it was, it was still a copy. Jane Foster explicitly got given the magical power of Thor; doesn't mean her feats cross to Thor and vice-versa.
3. It was a clone of n52 Superman, who was weaker.
4. He was still holding back, a per his words. I mean, you can argue about whether he can hold back the speed of his HV, but we're talking about comic books here. Maybe he held back by aiming at He-Man's sword, so that it wouldn't be a killing blow, or hurt He-Man.
1. No that whole He-Man line of comics (outside the crossover), was published by DC.
2-3. The argument isn't one of He-Man vs Superman here.
4. It's a a lot of mabye's you're introducing here. We are talking about a guy a shot his eye beams into He-Man's eyes, so see no reason to believe he was massivley holding back or aiming at He-Man's word.
Look one panel Fake Superman was approaching He-Man from behind, then the very next panel He-Man has moved himself and his sword and is defending against a blast of HV, coming from a pretty short range to boot.
So there's no reason to believe that defence was down to anything but speed.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Show me where that's stated.There's zero indication WW moved at lightspeed in those scans.
Deflecting Darkseids Omega Beams was a more convincing feat of movement speed.
They've obviously anticipated the attack.
Fallacy. Something doesn't have to be stated in order for it to be true or exist.
Just ask me to prove that Zoom was moving with a minimum of near light speed and that his perceptions were just as fast.
You are doing worst though.
1. You are assuming the speed of the HV
2. Your source is unusable.
2. Ends your argument in its tracks.
Originally posted by h1a8Funny because you want it stated somewhere about the speed of the HV that He-Man blocked.
Fallacy. Something doesn't have to be stated in order for it to be true or exist.
Originally posted by h1a8
Just ask me to prove that Zoom was moving with a minimum of near light speed and that his perceptions were just as fast.
Again WW was not shown moving at lightspeed at all. Her blocking OE was a much better indication.
Zoom just seemed to be caught off guard.
Originally posted by h1a8
You are doing worst though.
1. You are assuming the speed of the HV
Are we at least in agreement that He-Man must have moved faster than the HV?
Originally posted by h1a8
2. Your source is unusable.
Ive already refuted that. Pay attention please.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That doesn't mean she's blitzing him. Unless you can show her blitzing other opponents with vast superhuman speed like he has displayed.
Like who has displayed? He-Man?
Here, she lassos Amazo up, Amazo who had Flash's speed (and possibly Superman's and hers):
https://i.imgur.com/hR6Wwjp.jpeg
And you can even see how fast Amazo's thinking and reaction speeds are in relation to hers - he's still formulating the word 'Situation'.
And Supergirl, who earlier had been fighting Flash (who, admittedly, wasn't going all out - but my point is, Supergirl is pretty fast:
And Kara SPECIFICALLY comments on how fast WW is.
I mean that's comic book logic. Which is also why WW throwing a Lasso doesn't necessarily reflect her speed.
That said the HV was shown there moving in slow motion. And Batman knows his opponent.
1. No that whole He-Man line of comics (outside the crossover), was published by DC.2-3. The argument isn't one of He-Man vs Superman here.
4. It's a a lot of mabye's you're introducing here. We are talking about a guy a shot his eye beams into He-Man's eyes, so see no reason to believe he was massivley holding back or aiming at He-Man's word.
Look one panel Fake Superman was approaching He-Man from behind, then the very next panel He-Man has moved himself and his sword and is defending against a blast of HV, coming from a pretty short range to boot.
So there's no reason to believe that defence was down to anything but speed.
1. And? Still a crossover. Just because it is published by DC, doesn't make it usable for DC character levels, any more than JLA/Avenger being published by DC/Marvel makes it usable for DC/Marvel characters.
2-3 Agreed, but that wasn't my point. My point was that He-Man reacted to a Superman who....has no feats. I mean, I understand there was a reason you brought this specific feat up, which is 'look at how He-Man performs against this common ground character', for comparison. But if the comparator is the fake copy of a weaker version of Supes, well.....
4. Never said 'massively' holding back. But he was holding back, all the same. Which makes that specific feat a bit iffy.
As you acknowledged, Superman can have slowmotion HV. So.....Can you, hand on heart, say that he didn't aim for the sword (and was aiming to wound He-Man), used the full speed HV etc?
Because if you can, then that kinda ignores the whole 'I am holding back' statement, right?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Funny because you want it stated somewhere about the speed of the HV that He-Man blocked.
Again WW was not shown moving at lightspeed at all. Her blocking OE was a much better indication.
How do you know she wasn't shown to be moving that fast?
How would it be possible for her to lasso him when he is not only perceiving things in light speed or greater (bullets are statues) and also moving in complex paths to mimic multiple beings?
Zoom just seemed to be caught off guard.
Are we at least in agreement that He-Man must have moved faster than the HV?
Ive already refuted that. Pay attention please.
Forum rules buddy.
Originally posted by h1a8
How do you know she wasn't shown to be moving that fast?
How would it be possible for her to lasso him when he is not only perceiving things in light speed or greater (bullets are statues) and also moving in complex paths to mimic multiple beings?
The panel showed her not moving fast. Whilst the same panel showed Zoom moving super fast.
Originally posted by h1a8
If that is true then WW had to move near his perception limit just to distract him. Remember he was looking at her the entire time before those events happened.
Speculation.
Noting in the comic showed her moving anywhere near that fast.
Originally posted by h1a8
Even that is false. One only has to move at a fraction of the speed of an attack in order to block it. For example, he-man moves arms 1 feet in the same time the attack travels multiple feet.
And thats assuming he-man didnt get hit first, had his sword up in defense, etc.
Was very close range, and he had no idea Superman had that power.
So he had to see the HV coming at him and move his sword in front to protect himself. Given the close range and no way to protect himself, he had to move faster than the HV. Or WORST CASE very close to the same speed.
Originally posted by h1a8
Forum rules buddy.
Not relevant mate. I've already debunked that. Try allowing new information to enter your mind without your bias goggles on.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Like who has displayed? He-Man?
Here, she lassos Amazo up, Amazo who had Flash's speed (and possibly Superman's and hers):
https://i.imgur.com/hR6Wwjp.jpegAnd you can even see how fast Amazo's thinking and reaction speeds are in relation to hers - he's still formulating the word 'Situation'.[/B]
That seems to be the entire JL vs Amazo. And no indication he was moving at lightspeed or anything.
I mean if we go down this road then we will have to assume every time Thor or Hulk punch Gladiator or Surfer that they are operating at lightspeed. So do you really want to go there?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And Supergirl, who earlier had been fighting Flash (who, admittedly, wasn't going all out - but my point is, Supergirl is pretty fast:And Kara SPECIFICALLY comments on how fast WW is.[/B]
Funny because most the dialogue there actually backs up my point about anticipating opponents moves. Efficiency/skill over speed.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, but Flash just before WW had lassoed him specifically mentions picoseconds and femtoseconds, showing the level he was operating at - he wasn't just running at a leisurely jog when she caught him.[/B]
And yet still they don't show WW moving at those speeds. At all. Just her throwing her Lasso and catching him. Seems to go back to what she was telling Supergirl about studying and anticipating your opponent.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Slow motion from a pissed off Superman who was trying to burn Bats? Where do you get slow motion from? And if THIS is slow motion, then you acknowledge that Superman CAN change the speed of his HV (i.e. it is not constant).[/B]
That's what your scan shows there. Since you insisted Batman only moved AFTER the shot fired. It's stupid as hell taking the scan that literally. Much more likely it's Batman anticipating Superman's moves. And we both know a blood lusted Superman can speed blitz Batman, so somethings clearly off there.
Again though in He-Man's case he was:
1) Approahced from behind
2) Had no idea what Superman's powers were
3) At a much closer distance
And there was no indication there of Massively holding back like you're making out. There was only Superman's surprise at how strong He-Man was when he got booted.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
1. And? Still a crossover. Just because it is published by DC, doesn't make it usable for DC character levels, any more than JLA/Avenger being published by DC/Marvel makes it usable for DC/Marvel characters.[/B]
You're not getting the distinction here at all.
DC don't publish Avengers outside crossovers. That whole He-Man series was published by DC. Given that It'd be more like a crossover between Watchmen and the JL than JL and Avengers.
And btw I'm only using these feats because I can't access all He-Man's best speed feats from his own series right now. You've probably noticed how all the links in the Respect thread are f***ed.
That said, deflecting energy beams is something he does all the time. In fact in his 80's series he never seems to get hit. Always blocks/defends or evades.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
2-3 Agreed, but that wasn't my point. My point was that He-Man reacted to a Superman who....has no feats. I mean, I understand there was a reason you brought this specific feat up, which is 'look at how He-Man performs against this common ground character', for comparison. But if the comparator is the fake copy of a weaker version of Supes, well.....[/B]
It was about deflecting the HV is all. He also punched Flash right before.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
4. Never said 'massively' holding back. But he was holding back, all the same. Which makes that specific feat a bit iffy.[/B]
There's no reason to believe he was holding back on the speed of the HV. He just isn't used to fighting opponents as strong as He-Man.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As you acknowledged, Superman can have slowmotion HV. So.....Can you, hand on heart, say that he didn't aim for the sword (and was aiming to wound He-Man), used the full speed HV etc?Because if you can, then that kinda ignores the whole 'I am holding back' statement, right? [/B]
Honestly this is really reaching in an attempt to ignore that feat.
The HV was instantly on him as soon as he turned around. And he had to move his sword to deflect the HV. How does it make sense that he moved his sword to deflect nothing and then an evil magically made Superman shot at the sword.
Honestly this is speculating wayyyy too much, when the scene gives little room for that.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The panel showed her not moving fast. Whilst the same panel showed Zoom moving super fast.Speculation.
Noting in the comic showed her moving anywhere near that fast.
Was very close range, and he had no idea Superman had that power.
So he had to see the HV coming at him and move his sword in front to protect himself. Given the close range and no way to protect himself, he had to move faster than the HV. Or WORST CASE very close to the same speed.
Not relevant mate. I've already debunked that. Try allowing new information to enter your mind without your bias goggles on.
In comics, characters dont often get shown moving at all. Its a still picture.
Many frames are skipped and still pictures are drawn. In one scene you see someone fire an automatic weapon at someone. The next scene you see Spider-Man intercept the bullets and save the people they were intended for. But you dont see him move fast (according to your standard). Does that mean he didn't move fast?
Ok cool. So dont talk about the he-man feat if it isn't usable then.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That seems to be the entire JL vs Amazo. And no indication he was moving at lightspeed or anything.
I mean if we go down this road then we will have to assume every time Thor or Hulk punch Gladiator or Surfer that they are operating at lightspeed. So do you really want to go there?
I show WW against enemies - oh, they weren't at that speed.
OK, fair enough.
Except you don't have those showings either, then. I mean, prove Flash was moving at lightspeed when He-Man tagged him?
Funny because most the dialogue there actually backs up my point about anticipating opponents moves. Efficiency/skill over speed.
And yet still they don't show WW moving at those speeds. At all. Just her throwing her Lasso and catching him. Seems to go back to what she was telling Supergirl about studying and anticipating your opponent.
That's what your scan shows there. Since you insisted Batman only moved AFTER the shot fired. It's stupid as hell taking the scan that literally. Much more likely it's Batman anticipating Superman's moves. And we both know a blood lusted Superman can speed blitz Batman, so somethings clearly off there.
1. Batman anticipated Superman, and waited until the beams were halfway towards him, THEN leapt - an incredible timing feat, I think you'll agree. Imagine jumping after you turn the light on and the beams have travelled 50% of the way to you, lol.
2. Superman can vary the speed of his HV
3. Poor writing, and reacting to HV isn't necessarily proof of one's speed.
Again though in He-Man's case he was:1) Approahced from behind
2) Had no idea what Superman's powers were
3) At a much closer distanceAnd there was no indication there of Massively holding back like you're making out. There was only Superman's surprise at how strong He-Man was when he got booted.
Again - I NEVER said he was massively holding back. I have no idea where you get that from. I said he was holding back - as per his own words. He stopped once he got booted - but BEFORE that, he was holding back.
You're not getting the distinction here at all.DC don't publish Avengers outside crossovers. That whole He-Man series was published by DC. Given that It'd be more like a crossover between Watchmen and the JL than JL and Avengers.
And btw I'm only using these feats because I can't access all He-Man's best speed feats from his own series right now. You've probably noticed how all the links in the Respect thread are f***ed.
Yeah, lol.
That said, deflecting energy beams is something he does all the time. In fact in his 80's series he never seems to get hit. Always blocks/defends or evades.
It was about deflecting the HV is all. He also punched Flash right before.
There's no reason to believe he was holding back on the speed of the HV. He just isn't used to fighting opponents as strong as He-Man.
The HV was instantly on him as soon as he turned around. And he had to move his sword to deflect the HV. How does it make sense that he moved his sword to deflect nothing and then an evil magically made Superman shot at the sword.Honestly this is speculating wayyyy too much, when the scene gives little room for that.
The He Man side has almost bupkis to add to the speed argument.
Whereas WW has feats of being able to perceive a Flash thats explicitly operating on the Femtosecond level. I.e. massively faster than light. --and that's not even her best speed feat.
Whereas we're struggling to give He-Man even a light speed feat for reacting to HV that even Batman has reacted to, and the argument of "well supes can probably vary his HV speed" undermines the argument for the He-man side as well, since the magic clone admits to holding back too. Muddying the waters even more.
-So we have massively ftl reaction feats for Diana that aren't even her best feats.
Vs.
-An indeterminable HV blocking feat and an indeterminable Flash tagging feat while Barry happens to be mind controlled, standing still, and talking.
Again even if we give He-Man lightspeed status based on the silver age statement of battle cat running 'almost as fast as light' (which again came from the first crossover with Superman so likely inadmissible), that still puts him way too slow if that's the best he brings to the argument.
I love he man but it seems impossible for him to beat ww in a forum setting/battlezone type argument.
I mean, even if it was allowed...
It's still a magical clone of n52 Superman, who was mind-controlled by Skeletor and was STILL holding back, when he fired an energy attack that Batman is able to move his entire body out of the way of.
My point being, the whole 'feat' is so iffy, with so many hmm maybes, that no one would (usually) seriously use it on the forum.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, even if it was allowed...It's still a magical clone of n52 Superman, who was mind-controlled by Skeletor and was STILL holding back, when he fired an energy attack that Batman is able to move his entire body out of the way of.
My point being, the whole 'feat' is so iffy, with so many hmm maybes, that no one would (usually) seriously use it on the forum.
What does him being a clone have to do with He-Man defending against HV he didn't even know existed?
You don't need peak Superman going all out for that to be a legit speed feat.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
What does him being a clone have to do with He-Man defending against HV he didn't even know existed?You don't need peak Superman going all out for that to be a legit speed feat.
Then how fast was he then? I mean, we were debating how fast Zoom and Flash were in their scans, so let's apply the same reasoning to yours.
How fast was this magical mind-controlled clone of n52 Superman going, when he was holding back?
