Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then how fast was he then? I mean, we were debating how fast Zoom and Flash were in their scans, so let's apply the same reasoning to yours.How fast was this magical mind-controlled clone of n52 Superman going, when he was holding back?
Again what does any of that have to do with deflecting HV without even knowing that was a thing?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85But without knowing where Fake Superman was aiming, no.
He states "The Master wants your head". The panel before was "you shouldn't have done that" in response to He-Man punching Flash.
So There's literally no reason at all to assume he wasn't aiming for He-Man.
Really reaching here DS.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He states "The Master wants your head". The panel before was "you shouldn't have done that" in response to He-Man punching Flash.So There's literally no reason at all to assume he wasn't aiming for He-Man.
Really reaching here DS.
Why do you keep saying there's literally no reason at all....
When he specifically says he was holding back a few panels later?
I mean, if he's holding back....what's he holding back? And can you prove this?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why do you keep saying there's literally no reason at all....When he specifically says he was holding back a few panels later?
I mean, if he's holding back....what's he holding back? And can you prove this?
You're being massively disingenuous here. His exact words were "I'm sick of ALWAYS holding back".
You're making out as if he was specifically holding back against He-Man, so he might be aiming at his sword or some shit. And in the same scan that he says "The Master wants your head"
So yeah that is next level Reaching.
And no there is Zero reason to believe that.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're being massively disingenuous here. His exact words were "I'm sick of ALWAYS holding back".You're making out as if he was specifically holding back against He-Man, so he might be aiming at his sword or some shit. And in the same scan that he says "The Master wants your head"
So yeah that is next level Reaching.
And no there is Zero reason to believe that.
So he was holding back. THEN stopped, and THEN was trying to kill He-Man.
Prior to that, he wasn't. So....how was he holding back when he used his HV the first time?
Because the 2nd time, when Fake Superman WASN'T holding back, his HV hit him just fine.
So let's start there, in the absence of your mod ruling. When Superman said he was always holding back, HOW was he holding back with the HV? And whatever your assertion, back it up with proof.
Was he holding back:
1. The power
2. The aim
3. The speed
4. Something else?
Tbf, I think you misinterpreted my words. I am not saying he SPECIFICALLY held back against He-Man - I am saying he specifically SAID he was holding back. Big difference there - I was countering your point that there was literally no reason to believe he was holding back, which is false. He said he always holds back, which includes....the first HV blast.
Also, I NEVER said he wasn't aiming at He-Man - merely that he was aiming at an area which would be easier for He-Man to block/deflect (waist area, rather than his head, for example).
Originally posted by Darth ThorIt takes a smaller speed to block an attack than the attack itself. One does not have to move faster than the attack in order to block it.
Do you at least agree going by the panels that He-Man seemed to move faster than the HV ?
You are assuming HV entered the air, he-man saw it, he-man put up his sword to block it.
When it could have been
he-man put up his sword, Clone fired at the sword.
Or
Clone hit he-man with hv, he-man then used the sword to block the hv.
Or
Or he-man saw clone's eye glowing and anticipated an eyebeam.
We can only speculate. Even if the first scenario happened then you must prove the speed of the HV in order to prove that he-man is at least half as fast.
So lets argue that for now.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So he was holding back. THEN stopped, and THEN was trying to kill He-Man.
Again you are jumping to conclusions with the holding back.
He says he's sick of ALWAYS Holding back. That doesn't even mean he was holding back the second earlier (he literally says The Master wants your Head).
That means he doesn't usually get to display his Full Power, because most his opponents are not strong enough for that fight.
Just because he's not giving He-Man his hardest possible punch yet, does not mean he's not going for the kill.
"The Master Wants Your Head" suggests he was aiming for his neck (which actually is congruent with the scan).
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Prior to that, he wasn't.
He didn't say that.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So....how was he holding back when he used his HV the first time?
I don't know, you're the one making that claim.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because the 2nd time, when Fake Superman WASN'T holding back, his HV hit him just fine.
You mean when he shoots him in the eyes whilst grappling with him? That honestly seems like the same thing to you?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So let's start there, in the absence of your mod ruling. When Superman said he was always holding back, HOW was he holding back with the HV? And whatever your assertion, back it up with proof.
He didn't say he wasn't trying to kill He-Man. He just suggested he may not have been attacking with all his powers and all his might. Because he hardly Ever Does. He also hadn't punched He-Man yet, which meas if he had not held back at all with his HV, then that statement would still make complete sense. So in the absence of further proof, there's no need to believe he did.
Remember his HV shot made He-Man automatically realise this is some kind of demi-god, and the world's most powerful combatant. That doesn't suggest to me it was some slowed down, not so hot HV aimed only at his sword.
And remember he says that about Always holding back right prior to attacking He-Man PHYSICALLY, and using HV in conjunction with that. So he showed what he meant by not having to hold back anymore, and it's not what you seem to be suggesting.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Was he holding back:1. The power
2. The aim
3. The speed
4. Something else?
Probably on his punches, which he hadn't used yet, but was delighted to know that the fight wouldn't be over after one semi-hard punch.
Nothing on the scan suggests he slowed down his HV, or wasn't aiming at He-Man, or wasn't attempting to kill him.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tbf, I think you misinterpreted my words. I am not saying he SPECIFICALLY held back against He-Man - I am saying he specifically SAID he was holding back. Big difference there - I was countering your point that there was literally no reason to believe he was holding back, which is false. He said he always holds back, which includes....the first HV blast.
And there really isn't. He holds back against Mongul, doesn't mean he's not hitting him fast or hard. Doesn't mean he's slowing down his HV for him. Jeez. Doesn't mean he's not going for a fast KO. Just means he's not unleashing his full power until he needs to. Full power being a combo of everything.
Less likely an evil Superman clone wasn't going for the kill from the beginning though. A good Superman (holding back) goes for a KO. An evil one goes for the kill, even if he's not attacking with all his powers.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, I NEVER said he wasn't aiming at He-Man - merely that he was aiming at an area which would be easier for He-Man to block/deflect (waist area, rather than his head, for example).
You were suggesting he might be aiming for his sword. If that was the case He-Man wouldn't have needed to move his sword. Aiming for anywhere on He-Man's body, he would still have to intercept the shot.
However the dialogue suggests he was going for his neck, which the scan doesn't contradict.
Even more damning is that Fake Superman says "Eh You're Strong, Good" then says he's sick of always Holding back, and then immediately goes in with a physical attack.
That clearly suggests he was only talking about holding back on his strength, which he hadn't even used prior on He-Man. Ergo, no reason to believe he held back with that HV shot.
So, after Thor PM'd me, I went away and had a look at He-Man comics and how the crossover thing matches up. Honestly, the only thing that worries me is what versions of the DC characters they're supposed to be, because on principle, I'm not too bothered by using the feats from their crossover seeing as how DC printed a fair amount of He-Man stuff already.
It's a magical clone of n52 Superman (I think, based on the costume).
It could also be an alt. reality. I just assume it's a clone of n52, though.
The canonicity ,to me, doesn't matter - JLA/Avengers is meant to be canon, after all. But for me, it's the spirit of a crossover - where writers/artists can go wild.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's a magical clone of n52 Superman (I think, based on the costume).It could also be an alt. reality. I just assume it's a clone of n52, though.
The canonicity ,to me, doesn't matter - JLA/Avengers is meant to be canon, after all. But for me, it's the spirit of a crossover - where writers/artists can go wild.
One of the reasons I'm so vehemently against crossovers is because there is a substantial number of people that, when faced with evidence that one character > another, will default back to a crossover where they faced off and looked a bit equal. Like that matters more than the mountain of feats that exist.
Like how McDuffie's run on Justice League is brought up every time someone wants to argue that WW > Superman. And that's not even a crossover.
if He-Man performs a feat in a crossover that wouldn't be unreasonable in his normal comics (and I know by using He-Man for example I'm leaving a ton of wiggle room, but you get my meaning), then I have no problem with it being used on the boards.
That's me personally though.
Originally posted by -Pr-
One of the reasons I'm so vehemently against crossovers is because there is a substantial number of people that, when faced with evidence that one character > another, will default back to a crossover where they faced off and looked a bit equal. Like that matters more than the mountain of feats that exist.Like how McDuffie's run on Justice League is brought up every time someone wants to argue that WW > Superman. And that's not even a crossover.
if He-Man performs a feat in a crossover that wouldn't be unreasonable in his normal comics (and I know by using He-Man for example I'm leaving a ton of wiggle room, but you get my meaning), then I have no problem with it being used on the boards.
That's me personally though.
Problem is....the links in the respect thread for him are dead.
So who's to say what's reasonable? I mean, it's being used as a speed feat here - look, He-man managed to deflect HV fired by Fake Superman, he's obviously fast enough to tangle with WW!
When we don't cross feats across clones, crossovers, like you said, are kinda iffy sometimes etc....
And it's Diana.
Originally posted by -Pr-
One of the reasons I'm so vehemently against crossovers is because there is a substantial number of people that, when faced with evidence that one character > another, will default back to a crossover where they faced off and looked a bit equal. Like that matters more than the mountain of feats that exist.Like how McDuffie's run on Justice League is brought up every time someone wants to argue that WW > Superman. And that's not even a crossover.
if He-Man performs a feat in a crossover that wouldn't be unreasonable in his normal comics (and I know by using He-Man for example I'm leaving a ton of wiggle room, but you get my meaning), then I have no problem with it being used on the boards.
That's me personally though.
Aaaaannnnnddd, Diana have far more fts to pull from, so why not let the little Heman have be a factor here
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Problem is....the links in the respect thread for him are dead.So who's to say what's reasonable? I mean, it's being used as a speed feat here - look, He-man managed to deflect HV fired by Fake Superman, he's obviously fast enough to tangle with WW!
When we don't cross feats across clones, crossovers, like you said, are kinda iffy sometimes etc....
And it's Diana.
Well I mean, if you're gonna argue for or against someone, it's implied that you should know a bit about them. Comics nowadays are easier to access than before, so if someone really wanted to find out He-Man's capabilities, then they shouldn't have much trouble finding some examples.
I mean, I don't know if he's as fast as Diana. He might not be. But I only know He-Man from the cartoons.
Originally posted by carver9
Aaaaannnnnddd, Diana have far more fts to pull from, so why not let the little Heman have be a factor here
Did you even read what I said?