Wolverine vs Superman Rogues (& Hulk is somehow involved)

Originally posted by carver9
I brought up the dog showing for one reason and one reason only. As I've stated on too many occasions in this same thread, these characters have more than one showing. This is the problem, Mr. Saint. You cling to one showing so much that it makes it next to impossible to debate with you. Well, you don't do this for all characters but hey.

So what are Logan's best showings? I mean, you are saying he is lightspeed, no?

Originally posted by carver9
Finally, we are back on topic. Wolverine tagged Gladiator who have light speed showings. Even jumped on his back while he was flying.

As in, no matter what I or anyone says, you are going to jump in and say well, Logan has this showing where he hits Gladiator, where he hits XYZ, so your point is meaningless because Metallo/Mongul/Kalibak are slower than Gladiator!

I mean, I showed Kalibak hitting a speedster, casually, who is far faster than Logan, even when injured.

I showed Kalibak grabbing Grail out of midair, Grail who is faster than WW. Yet, you will want to say 'hey, here is Titus speedblitzing Kalibak'.

So why debate? We can go back to my very first post here, which predicted your exact behavior in this thread:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wolverine could be at his worst and he'd still clear.

Because even if I brought in Kalibak's Grail showing, you would counter with Titus. And Wolverine, even at his worst, is faster than a dog (lol).

So Wolverine can be at his worst, and still clear - because you are using these characters at their worst lol. And none of them are heroes, all will eventually lose, and none are as beloved as Logan.

There you go, I saved your entire thread.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what are Logan's best showings? I mean, you are saying he is lightspeed, no?

As in, no matter what I or anyone says, you are going to jump in and say well, Logan has this showing where he hits Gladiator, where he hits XYZ, so your point is meaningless because Metallo/Mongul/Kalibak are slower than Gladiator!

I mean, I showed Kalibak hitting a speedster, casually, who is far faster than Logan, even when injured.

I showed Kalibak grabbing Grail out of midair, Grail who is faster than WW. Yet, you will want to say 'hey, here is Titus speedblitzing Kalibak'.

So why debate? We can go back to my very first post here, which predicted your exact behavior in this thread:

Because even if I brought in Kalibak's Grail showing, you would counter with Titus. And Wolverine, even at his worst, is faster than a dog (lol).

So Wolverine can be at his worst, and still clear - because you are using these characters at their worst lol. And none of them are heroes, all will eventually lose, and none are as beloved as Logan.

There you go, I saved your entire thread.

Hmmm. Interesting, maybe Carver should post the feats we are allowed to use? That way there's no confusion

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Hmmm. Interesting, maybe Carver should post the feats we are allowed to use? That way there's no confusion

Show me a post where I limited fts.

Here:

Originally posted by carver9
Everyone minus Wolverine is at their average, everyday, comic showings. Don't understand why that question had to be asked when I specifically only typed Wolverine in my OP.

Originally posted by carver9
I want to ask why you're laughing at that amazing, great, outstanding post but I feel like I don't need to know why.

The hypocrisy, for starters at least.

@Dark...

That's not limiting them, lol. That's saying you can use ALL of their showings, not just limiting them to their highest ever which is what you were doing.

Meh stops at Grundy

Originally posted by carver9
@Dark...

That's not limiting them, lol. That's saying you can use ALL of their showings, not just limiting them to their highest ever which is what you were doing.

So I can choose, from ALL their showings, their Highest ones, lmao

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant we could only use their average showings, my bad

You can get all of their showings, find a middle ground (their average) and go from there. Lol... it's sad that you go into threads using nothing but high showings for DC, I mean, all characters. No wonder you think people like Superman is untouchable.

Originally posted by carver9
You can get all of their showings, find a middle ground (their average) and go from there. Lol... it's sad that you go into threads using nothing but high showings for DC, I mean, all characters. No wonder you think people like Superman is untouchable.

So, we use the Average Capacity, sorry, what was it called again? Low Capacity Rule? Remind me again, please.

You obviously don't know what 'average' means, lmao.

Get an average of how powerful these characters are and go from there. Not there highs and just stop there. Take all of their showings, highs, lows, mids and sum up how powerful you think these characters should be. It's simple, really. We are not using your speed blitz, untouchable, version of Superman style debating here or your Thor not being injured by Herald level characters because he withstand angry Celestial type of power that you don't use. We are using the type of debating style you use for people like Thor, Hulk and Surfer. How you debate using those characters, use it here. I can post a thread here if you want.

But you miss the nuance that PIS exists. Or that some characters have plot armour, or are just treated differently.

A character can struggle with Two Face, yet tank Mongul's punches. Your logic would then say well, Mongul has these lows, so despite having highs (I mean the thread even names him as a Rogue for a High Herald), we ignore that and get to the middle.

Kalibak can grab Grail out of the air casually. That's like a score of 100.

Then gets speedblitzed by Titus. So that's a score of 1.

As per your logic, Kalibak is now like....50, lol. So nowhere near HH in his levels, because you assigned an equal weight to his Titus showing. Which is silly.

Did Carver seriously not read the rules about low showings? Does he not know that they don't affect the average?

Have we not been through all this before?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Did Carver seriously not read the rules about low showings? Does he not know that they don't affect the average?

Have we not been through all this before?

Oh trust me, I know the rules, it's been posted too many time. I'm not saying lows is the primary, I'm saying we shouldn't exclude everything. Also, what you consider a low showing might not be a low showing to someone else. Who honestly write the rule book on what's a low, high or mid showing?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But you miss the nuance that PIS exists. Or that some characters have plot armour, or are just treated differently.

A character can struggle with Two Face, yet tank Mongul's punches. Your logic would then say well, Mongul has these lows, so despite having highs (I mean the thread even names him as a Rogue for a High Herald), we ignore that and get to the middle.

Kalibak can grab Grail out of the air casually. That's like a score of 100.

Then gets speedblitzed by Titus. So that's a score of 1.

As per your logic, Kalibak is now like....50, lol. So nowhere near HH in his levels, because you assigned an equal weight to his Titus showing. Which is silly.

Or, Kalibak grabbing Grail is a low showing for her and a high showing for Kalibak. This is why you take all of their showings under consideration. Kalibak grabbing Grail is a 1 for Grail and a 100 for Kalibak. Low showing for Grail, high showing for Kalibak. What does this average out to? He should not have been capable of grabbing Grail.

Also, he grabbed her out of the air... when she was grounded, he couldn't touch her...

https://comicnewbies.com/2015/09/30/grail-vs-kalibak/amp/

Originally posted by carver9
Or, Kalibak grabbing Grail is a low showing for her and a high showing for Kalibak. This is why you take all of their showings under consideration. Kalibak grabbing Grail is a 1 for Grail and a 100 for Kalibak. Low showing for Grail, high showing for Kalibak. What does this average out to? He should not have been capable of grabbing Grail.

So we don't use it for her, and use it for Kalibak.

Batman shrugs off WW's hits. Doesn't mean she's human level in strength, but it's an amazing showing for him.

Logan tags Gladiator. Is Glads Low Meta in speed? Or was it a high showing for Logan? It's a high showing for Logan.

Susan Storm blocks Sentry from getting past her shields for a few punches. Does that mean Sentry is weak? Or Sue is strong? It means Sue is strong.

So if you say he shouldn't be able to touch Grail....why?

Originally posted by carver9
Also, he grabbed her out of the air... when she was grounded, he couldn't touch her...

https://comicnewbies.com/2015/09/30/grail-vs-kalibak/amp/

So as long as Logan stays grounded and doesn't try to leap ,he can't be touched? That's saying a lot , considering he leaps (especially against bigger opponents) all the time.

My point with that showing was that Grail and Kalibak were roughly about the same, with Grail being faster. Same way Beast and WWH (as an example) were roughly the same ballpark. Not equal, before you jump down my throat, lol.

Originally posted by carver9
Oh trust me, I know the rules, it's been posted too many time. I'm not saying lows is the primary, I'm saying we shouldn't exclude everything. Also, what you consider a low showing might not be a low showing to someone else. Who honestly write the rule book on what's a low, high or mid showing?

I mean, you posted these scans:

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... but the Flashes are Z listers as well...

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-552dc7ace06f56b23349aeef38b31cfd

https://ibb.co/2W1KYJd

Semi-joking, I know. But you can honestly say that it's a low showing for Flash, no? Outside of a comic, on the forum, where Flash can travel around the world and make sandwiches whilst writing entire novels etc in a nanopicosecond - your stance is that it's what, usable in a forum fight? In a serious debate?

Wonder Woman not killing Batman in the first hit is a low showing for Wonder Woman.

Logan tagging Gladiator is a low showing for Gladiator. I brought that up because you mentioned a speedster that Kalibak was obviously slower than.

Sue has consistently held back high tier beings, even blocked attacks from pissed Celestials. If she failed at stopping Sentry, that would've been a low showing for her.

Everything you said basically proved my point.

It's easier just grabbing someone out of the air. Simple. Grail easily dodged him afterwards and no, they are not in the same ballpark just like Beast and WWH isn't. Now, we can settle this if you want. Admit to me right now that Aquaman and Superman are close to each other in speed and I'll say WWH and Beast are close...

https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/aquaman-and-mera-vs-superman-rebirth-4.png

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, you posted these scans:

Semi-joking, I know. But you can honestly say that it's a low showing for Flash, no? Outside of a comic, on the forum, where Flash can travel around the world and make sandwiches whilst writing entire novels etc in a nanopicosecond - your stance is that it's what, usable in a forum fight? In a serious debate?

What's the difference between Deathstroke tagging Flash vs Kalibak tagging Grail?