Order these guys by speed

Originally posted by cdtm
Sure it is.

If your stance is to argue in comic books training can make up any difference in raw speed, I'd call that the definition of a no limits fallacy.

Stilt does the same thing when he argues Matt Murdoch can credibly beat up Namor, because of his skills. Yeah, it does happen in comics, doesn't mean it's because of training, as opposed to garden variety PIS.

Nobody’s taking the position that Daredevil can outrace Flash.

On the other hand, there is actual evidence of how skill can provide a much bigger boost in comics than it would IRL: Val Armorr (as you said), and more relevant, Wonder Woman being the 7th fastest runner in DC due to her skill edge.

There’s evidence, so there’s no fallacy.

Originally posted by Smurph
But since OP is asking for reaction, dodging and fighting, then the speed edges that WW gets from training should factor into her rank on the list.

Otherwise, precogs etc should also be taken into account, and then it gets muddied.

Skill, however, is this magical ability that makes up for gaps because writers want streets to not become pink mists as soon as they face a meta. I mean, we have Batman trading blows with Zoom, lol - a guy who was casually batting a bloodlusted Wally away with one hand.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Whilst I would say that it shouldn't factor in (or at least, should be taken into account with 'points' deducted. Caveats etc).

Otherwise, precogs etc should also be taken into account, and then it gets muddied.

Skill, however, is this magical ability that makes up for gaps because writers want streets to not become pink mists as soon as they face a meta. I mean, we have Batman trading blows with Zoom, lol - a guy who was casually batting a bloodlusted Wally away with one hand.

The fact that “skill” can be abused by writers as a replacement for speed (as with Batman) doesn’t mean WW’s skill doesn’t actually make her faster (as in the running example). There doesn’t need to be a hard and fast rule here because Batman and WW are very different characters.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I never argued MURDOCK (learn to spell it, you inbred imbecile) can beat up Namor.

Stop making shit up. And do kill yourself.

Originally posted by lawest9
As IMMORTAL Herc he got KO'd by Daredevils Billy club while a member of the Champions so I'm sure he'd get ko'd by Danny's Iron fist when BOTH shot was to the back of his head.

Close enough.

1. That's lawest, not me.

2. It wasn't his billy club, it was Cap's shield which got redirected and thrown back at Herc.

3. Herc still wasn't KO'd:

https://tinyurl.com/362cjhrp

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
1. That's lawest, not me.

2. It wasn't his billy club, it was Cap's shield which got redirected and thrown back at Herc.

3. Herc still wasn't KO'd:

https://tinyurl.com/362cjhrp

You all sound the same to me.

Proof enough I'm not the only one who can't get his facts straight, never see you go hard affer him. 😛

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
1. That's lawest, not me.

Originally posted by cdtm
never see you go hard affer him. 😛

Are you serious?

I go so fucking hard after him, he literally reports me for sexual harassment.

Im actually surprised Stilt hasnt put cdtm on ignore, considering the annoyance he caused

I have, actually. A good few times. But the posts are always one click away and cdtm posts f*cking everywhere.

So, our relationship is like this:

I catch his bait and f*ck him up.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
No.

Shes right,, Lizard and venom are both faster in pure speed and bullrushes, Parker just has spider sense.

Parker has stated this multiple times, and these two have always had decent showings of reacting and outreacting Spiderman.

Venom saving the child in the first Carnage Ark comes to mind some say Parker just missed what is because he was too slow

Gravity - who was a hardcore Spider-Man fanboy - has stated that Gargan (yes, even Gargan... who, let's face it, was one of the lamest Venoms ever) was comparable to Parker in terms of speed.

And Gargan's inferiority was pretty much confirmed in that Venom Annual a while back, if memory serves.

When Mac brags in the bar about being Venom once, nobody is impressed, and he ends up wetting his pants in front of the real deal.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Whilst I would say that it shouldn't factor in (or at least, should be taken into account with 'points' deducted. Caveats etc).

Otherwise, precogs etc should also be taken into account, and then it gets muddied.

Skill, however, is this magical ability that makes up for gaps because writers want streets to not become pink mists as soon as they face a meta. I mean, we have Batman trading blows with Zoom, lol - a guy who was casually batting a bloodlusted Wally away with one hand.

In that sense, it's actually the perfect fight that shows the difference between speed and skill, and how ones superior skill can counter an >/= speed opponent.

Then you have the ridiculous "rolling with the blows" ability (which somehow so drastically reduces effectiveness of your opponent's hits, you can survive anything, even superhuman bricks whose fists are the size of a truck)... and - of course - targeting vital areas and pressure points.

PG/WW is quite rare, as usually heralds don't bother utilizing skill to any degree - as Canary says.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
It means in raw speed PG is faster.

But WW's training has optimized her delay from stimuli intake to reaction. And she can throw a punch with better form, meaning it flies out quicker and/or with less telegraphing.

If PG was equal in skill/training to Diana, the difference would probably be like what Ali and Roy Jones did to equally experienced boxers.

There is no such thing as raw speed. There are many different types of speed as well as strength (think of the strongman competition).

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Shes right,, Lizard and venom are both faster in pure speed and bullrushes, Parker just has spider sense.

Parker has stated this multiple times, and these two have always had decent showings of reacting and outreacting Spiderman.

Venom saving the child in the first Carnage Ark comes to mind some say Parker just missed what is because he was too slow

Different writers Different opinions. By feats Spider-Man is faster.
By direct confrontation, spidey has reacted to venom attacks more than the other way around.

Plot also dictates speed.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
1. That's lawest, not me.

2. It wasn't his billy club, it was Cap's shield which got redirected and thrown back at Herc.

3. Herc still wasn't KO'd:

https://tinyurl.com/362cjhrp

😂 so he's even wrong about being wrong now.

Originally posted by h1a8
Wrong. It takes perception to perceive a punch in time and movement speed to deal with it in time. WW is faster in perceptions and limb speed. She cam hit PG but PG has trouble hitting her.
PG might be faster in travel speed.

There is no such thing as raw speed. There are many different types of speed as well as strength (think of the strongman competition).

Wrong. I don't understand how you could misunderstand such a simple concept.

Perception speed is innate, and can be honed by training.

The fact that PG can land hits despite several centuries of training disadvantage means that her pure physical stats are noticeably higher than WW, but simply unrefined to the point that WW's quickness (economy of movement thru skill and muscle memory) overtakes it.

A jab is quicker than an overhand punch. An overhand punch however is far *faster* in movement rate than a jab. Get the difference?

If training was equal, the reflex difference would be at least as great as the difference between a very fast boxer (Roy Jones Jr) vs a somewhat above average speed boxer (James Toney).

If RJJ was only an amateur level fighter, he would have been smoked by Toney despite being the far better athlete.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I have, actually. A good few times. But the posts are always one click away and cdtm posts f*cking everywhere.

So, our relationship is like this:

I catch his bait and f*ck him up.

😂

In fairness you totally glossed over Samuel Silke. Even in my ignorance of Fisk laughing off stabs, gun shots, and billy clubs, I knew something was off about a garden variety goombah getting the drop on Fisk and sending him to the hospital.

Brian Michael Bendis doing what he does best.