Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXLucifer characterizing him as a side effect would suggest that Destiny was a personification of the Presence's plan but I was specifically referring to the Book of Destiny itself.
here-
https://postimg.cc/wy5n6PG1
I see how it could be read that way. But Death has been shown to be the last being in existence before. And there are other characters who proclaimed they were beyond Death and refuted.
Originally posted by ODG
Lucifer characterizing him as a side effect would suggest that Destiny was a personification of the Presence's plan but I was specifically referring to the Book of Destiny itself.I see how it could be read that way. But Death has been shown to be the last being in existence before. And there are other characters who proclaimed they were beyond Death and refuted.
That could be true if Lucifer left creation, as he has before.
Originally posted by ODGtheres a bit more from carey's series in that regard.
Lucifer characterizing him as a side effect would suggest that Destiny was a personification of the Presence's plan but I was specifically referring to the Book of Destiny itself.
like this-
https://postimg.cc/CzML80r0
and this-
https://postimg.cc/9DrmxpjN
and this-
https://postimg.cc/v4kQCVY8
https://postimg.cc/2qWzYSyQ
https://postimg.cc/njtnhf96
to sum all of that up-
the scheme of things is known to destiny (because the plan is all laid out in his book).
the book has no existence separate from destiny. they are one in the same; a packaged deal.
michael went to consult destiny for the sole purpose of reading his book to see if there was any way to save yahweh's creation (because the plan is all laid out in his book).
elaine asks if destiny would know if creation was about to truly end, to which he responds that he would indeed know (because the plan is all laid out in his book).
destiny notes that the very script in which the book is written is about to change (because elaine was about to become the new yahweh).
and then we have lucifer saying that destiny (and by default his book) are a side effect of yahweh enacting his plan.
Originally posted by ODGdeath's ability to collect lucifer could be circumstantial like galan mentioned. because it doesn't seem like death has any hold over lucifer unless he allows it. and like i said to zopzop, that makes sense to me, because lucifer IS the will of god. so a lesser order of being (like death) having the power to take him against his will seems contradictory.
I see how it could be read that way. But Death has been shown to be the last being in existence before. And there are other characters who proclaimed they were beyond Death and refuted.
so in a forum fight between death and lucifer, if death tried to kill him herself, then lucifer would probably just deny her. lucifer is simply above her (or any member of the endless).
but if, say, a more powerful being than lucifer (like yahweh) stepped in and killed him, then i suppose death would be the one to collect him in the aftermath..... if that makes sense?
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
death's ability to collect lucifer could be circumstantial like galan mentioned. because it doesn't seem like death has any hold over lucifer unless he allows it. and like i said to zopzop, that makes sense to me, because lucifer IS the will of god. so a lesser order of being (like death) having the power to take him against his will seems contradictory.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXThese scans suggest a different proposition than the one you're claiming, i.e., the Book of Destiny = Presence's plan. Because if you double down on that, then Presence's plan = Book of Destiny = Destiny. And I don't believe you think Destiny = Presence's plan. It's more arguable he's a "side effect" as Lucifer characterizes.
theres a bit more from carey's series in that regard.like this-
https://postimg.cc/CzML80r0and this-
https://postimg.cc/9DrmxpjN
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXA closer reading of these scans suggests that Presence's absence doesn't affect the wider multiverse since Lucifer's creation isn't affected by the Presence's absence. It also suggests that the Book of Destiny's script alters when the Book of Destiny is read from. Which... if we return to your original claim that the Book of Destiny = Presence's plan, then reading the Book must change the Presence's plan. But I don't think you would take things that far.
and this-
https://postimg.cc/v4kQCVY8
https://postimg.cc/2qWzYSyQ
https://postimg.cc/njtnhf96
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXOr maybe you do? So by your reading, Destiny = Presence's plan? And Presence's plan can be changed by reading the Book of Destiny? There's a few levels of disconnect here.
to sum all of that up-
the scheme of things is known to destiny (because the plan is all laid out in his book).the book has no existence separate from destiny. they are one in the same; a packaged deal.
michael went to consult destiny for the sole purpose of reading his book to see if there was any way to save yahweh's creation (because the plan is all laid out in his book).
elaine asks if destiny would know if creation was about to truly end, to which he responds that he would indeed know (because the plan is all laid out in his book).
destiny notes that the very script in which the book is written is about to change (because elaine was about to become the new yahweh).
and then we have lucifer saying that destiny (and by default his book) are a side effect of yahweh enacting his plan.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXYou're assuming the Endless are lesser order of beings. I mean, by returning to your original logic, if Destiny = Book of Destiny = Presence's plan, could you really characterize the personification of the Presence's plan as being a lesser order of being than the personification of the Presence's will?
death's ability to collect lucifer could be circumstantial like galan mentioned. because it doesn't seem like death has any hold over lucifer unless he allows it. and like i said to zopzop, that makes sense to me, because lucifer IS the will of god. so a lesser order of being (like death) having the power to take him against his will seems contradictory.so in a forum fight between death and lucifer, if death tried to kill him herself, then lucifer would probably just deny her. lucifer is simply above her (or any member of the endless).
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXSince this works both from within and without your argued hierarchy, this would make sense. 👆
but if, say, a more powerful being than lucifer (like yahweh) stepped in and killed him, then i suppose death would be the one to collect him in the aftermath..... if that makes sense?
Originally posted by zopzopErr... while this next fact doesn't really affect your line of logic, just keep in mind that the Presence wasn't beyond Death either if you read v2, so...
Lucifer cannot be the Will of God while an omnipotent/omniscient God exists. For the same reason Michael can't be God's power while an omnipotent/omniscient God exists. It's a logical fallicy by definition there can be only ONE omnipotent being otherwise it's not omnipotent. Lucifer and Micahael are created beings. God created them, they have a beginning and an end. Only an omnipotent God is beyond Death. If you can die, by any means, you are not beyond Death. It's not complicated.
Originally posted by zopzopno. lucifer IS god's will. michael IS god's demirugic power. that was stated several times by carey.
Lucifer cannot be the Will of God while an omnipotent/omniscient God exists. For the same reason Michael can't be God's power while an omnipotent/omniscient God exists. It's a logical fallicy by definition there can be only ONE omnipotent being otherwise it's not omnipotent. Lucifer and Micahael are created beings. God created them, they have a beginning and an end. Only an omnipotent God is beyond Death. If you can die, by any means, you are not beyond Death. It's not complicated.
the fact that death might be the one who collects them when they die (through whatever means) does not mean that death herself has the power to kill them.
Originally posted by ODGdestiny is the embodiment of gods plan, yes. i think carey made that clear in his series. as did gaiman (i only mention gaiman because carey mirrored his works).
These scans suggest a different proposition than the one you're claiming, i.e., the Book of Destiny = Presence's plan. Because if you double down on that, then Presence's plan = Book of Destiny = Destiny. And I don't believe you think Destiny = Presence's plan. It's more arguable he's a "side effect" as Lucifer characterizes. A closer reading of these scans suggests that Presence's absence doesn't affect the wider multiverse since Lucifer's creation isn't affected by the Presence's absence. It also suggests that the Book of Destiny's script alters when the Book of Destiny is read from. Which... if we return to your original claim that the Book of Destiny = Presence's plan, then reading the Book must change the Presence's plan. But I don't think you would take things that far. Or maybe you do? So by your reading, Destiny = Presence's plan? And Presence's plan can be changed by reading the Book of Destiny? There's a few levels of disconnect here. You're assuming the Endless are lesser order of beings. I mean, by returning to your original logic, if Destiny = Book of Destiny = Presence's plan, could you really characterize the personification of the Presence's plan as being a lesser order of being than the personification of the Presence's will? Since this works both from within and without your argued hierarchy, this would make sense. 👆
but i suppose what really matters here is that lucifer seemingly has the power to destroy destiny's "physical" vessel. galan posted the scans earlier, but in v3 lucifer could have killed destiny outright, and even carey (and gaiman) said that lucifer was the 2nd most powerful being in creation.
now if lucifer destroyed destiny's vessel in a comic, then he would eventually just find a new host (like what happened to daniel after morpheus died). but in a forum battle, killing that one vessel would be enough for a win.
also if carey and gaiman have lucifer as the #2 most powerful being in creation (with only yahweh himself being his superior) then it means the endless become lesser order of beings by default.
Originally posted by ODG
Err... while this next fact doesn't really affect your line of logic, just keep in mind that the Presence wasn't beyond Death either if you read v2, so...
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
no. lucifer IS god's will. michael IS god's demirugic power. that was stated several times by carey.the fact that death might be the one who collects them when they die (through whatever means) does not mean that death herself has the power to kill them.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXNot sure if this is intentional hit you’ve talked past me for the last 3-4 posts. If you want to actually address what I’m saying, let me know.
destiny is the embodiment of gods plan, yes. i think carey made that clear in his series. as did gaiman (i only mention gaiman because carey mirrored his works).but i suppose what really matters here is that lucifer seemingly has the power to destroy destiny's "physical" vessel. galan posted the scans earlier, but in v3 lucifer could have killed destiny outright, and even carey (and gaiman) said that lucifer was the 2nd most powerful being in creation.
now if lucifer destroyed destiny's vessel in a comic, then he would eventually just find a new host (like what happened to daniel after morpheus died). but in a forum battle, killing that one vessel would be enough for a win.
also if carey and gaiman have lucifer as the #2 most powerful being in creation (with only yahweh himself being his superior) then it means the endless become lesser order of beings by default.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXSo when you keep positing that Destiny or the Book of Destiny as literally being the Presence’s plan, it’s increasingly odd you keep denigrating his station compared to Lucifer’s.
no. lucifer IS god's will. michael IS god's demirugic power. that was stated several times by carey.the fact that death might be the one who collects them when they die (through whatever means) does not mean that death herself has the power to kill them.
Personification of Presence’s plan, i.e., Destiny <<<<<<<<< personification of Presence’s will, i.e., Lucifer.
It strikes me as arbitrary. And again, I was just asking why you equate the Book of Destiny with Presence’s plan. The latter seems above the former but you keep equating them.
Originally posted by ODGunder carey, yahweh>lucifer>everything else in creation (including the endless).
So when you keep positing that Destiny or the Book of Destiny as literally being the Presence’s plan, it’s increasingly odd you keep denigrating his station compared to Lucifer’s.Personification of Presence’s plan, i.e., Destiny <<<<<<<<< personification of Presence’s will, i.e., Lucifer.
It strikes me as arbitrary. And again, I was just asking why you equate the Book of Destiny with Presence’s plan. The latter seems above the former but you keep equating them.
destiny being an embodiment of yahweh's plan clearly doesn't mean that lucifer cannot destroy him. especially in a forum fight.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXWell, if you’re just going to assume your conclusion, that’s your prerogative.
under carey, yahweh>lucifer>everything else in creation (including the endless).destiny being an embodiment of yahweh's plan clearly doesn't mean that lucifer cannot destroy him. especially in a forum fight.
What’s more baffling is your claimed hierarchy has little to do with anything as to whether the Book of Destiny = Presence’s plan. And that was what we were discussing originally.
Just don’t blame me for moving the goalposts here.
i'm not moving the goalposts at all. i've repeatedly said that destiny is an embodiment of yahweh's plan, similar to how lucifer is the embodiment of yahweh's will. but this doesnt negate the fact that lucifer is still above destiny and CAN destroy him (or at least his vessel). which is enough to win in a forum fight like this.
again yahweh>lucifer>everything else in creation (including the endless). those are carey's words, not mine.
Originally posted by ODG
Well, if you’re just going to assume your conclusion, that’s your prerogative.What’s more baffling is your claimed hierarchy has little to do with anything as to whether the Book of Destiny = Presence’s plan. And that was what we were discussing originally.
Just don’t blame me for moving the goalposts here.
Originally posted by zopzop
No being in Marvel or DC has been shown to be truly omnipotent. Closest thing to an all-powerful being is DC's Mxy when he's being serious (see World's Funnest where he ended all of DC and remade it instantly).
So you don't subscribe to the idea that supreme being of a company can be omnipotent