Lucifer Morningstar vs. The Endless

Started by zopzop5 pages

Originally posted by MrMind
So you don't subscribe to the idea that supreme being of a company can be omnipotent

He/She/It can if it's shown to be on panel. So far, only Mxy comes close.

Originally posted by zopzop
No being in Marvel or DC has been shown to be truly omnipotent. Closest thing to an all-powerful being is DC's Mxy when he's being serious (see World's Funnest where he ended all of DC and remade it instantly).

Animal Man Grant Morrison?

Originally posted by cdtm
Animal Man Grant Morrison?
A lot of writers have been portrayed as facets of the one supreme being in both Marvel and DC comics. You point out Grant Morrison in Animal Man. There was also Jack Kirby in Fantastic Four. But if there are other comics portraying that same omnipotent being and imposing apparent limits, then those limits stand unless otherwise retconned, no?

Originally posted by ODG
A lot of writers have been portrayed as facets of the one supreme being in both Marvel and DC comics. You point out Grant Morrison in Animal Man. There was also Jack Kirby in Fantastic Four. But if there are other comics portraying that same omnipotent being and imposing apparent limits, then those limits stand unless otherwise retconned, no?

Has Grant Morrison ever made another appearance though?

I'd argue in any case Kirby and Morrison are different, in the sense Kirby is a construct of a person created by a writer, with the same rules and limits imposed on all frictional character, while Morrison is literally the avatar of the writer of the story. By definition that kind of makes him an apex predator, if limited to the story he writes (And within the confines of company policy).

^ Pretty sure he has (at least, in some tongue-in-cheek appearances) but even if he didn't, the Presence itself has made several appearances thereafter. Just like TOAA has.

Picking and choosing which portrayals you want to apply isn't exactly consistent?

Originally posted by ODG
A lot of writers have been portrayed as facets of the one supreme being in both Marvel and DC comics. You point out Grant Morrison in Animal Man. There was also Jack Kirby in Fantastic Four. But if there are other comics portraying that same omnipotent being and imposing apparent limits, then those limits stand unless otherwise retconned, no?
that's probably why he mentioned the grant morrison character from animal man specifically (not the version ostrander bastardized later). the writer character from animal man really was as omnipotent as it can get, considering it was basically morrison writing himself into a comic book and controlling its events as the series author.

^ Jack Kirby as TOAA was as omnipotent as it can get too... but Thanos: The Infinity Ending Finale kinda threw a wrench into that notion.

Are we going to ignore all of the Presence's on-panel shortcomings after Animal Man (and before, mind you) also?

EDIT

how is jack kirby avatar any different than the writer from animal man?

^ That's my point? 😕

Originally posted by ODG
^ Jack Kirby as TOAA was as omnipotent as it can get too... but Thanos: The Infinity Ending kinda threw a wrench into that notion.

Are we going to ignore all of the Presence's on-panel shortcomings after Animal Man (and before, mind you) also?

he used the grant morrison character from animal man. that's it.

if someone only mentioned the jack kirby avatar from that one f4 issue, i wouldn't assume they meant any other version of toaa but that one.

talking about the presence or toaa in general (all appearances) is a different convo.

^ Ok, but if you track this specific conversation backwards from its inception... then everything mentioned is relevant to the conversation.

Originally posted by ODG
Was Lucifer ever shown or implied to be above Death?
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
here-
https://postimg.cc/YLpZj35b
Bruh. Just re-read this and this was the very next page after your scan:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Death01.jpg

Originally posted by ODG
Bruh. Just re-read this and this was the very next page after your scan:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Death01.jpg

And in the pages before that, Death said "I know, I know not time yet", referring to Lucifer, implying that there WILL be a time he dies, it's just not that day.

It only means that at full power Death has no claim over Lucifer, which is how he's in the thread.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It only means that at full power Death has no claim over Lucifer, which is how he's in the thread.

Full power or not, he WILL die one day, just not that day (like Death said). He's not above Death.

Originally posted by zopzop
And in the pages before that, Death said "I know, I know not time yet", referring to Lucifer, implying that there WILL be a time he dies, it's just not that day.

Good point.

Makes one wonder how she knows when the right "time" is though.

Originally posted by cdtm
Good point.

Makes one wonder how she knows when the right "time" is though.


One of three ways : "God" tells her when it's time to reap souls, she consults her older brother Destiny, or it's just comes naturally to her as part of her job/function.

Originally posted by zopzop
One of three ways : "God" tells her when it's time to reap souls, she consults her older brother Destiny, or it's just comes naturally to her as part of her job/function.

Probably 3 then.

Out of all the Endless, she seems to have the most freedom. The Kindly Ones sure seemed intimidated by her. Dreams old girlfriend Thessaly even said while the Endless are bound by rules, Death can pretty much do whatever she wants.

Yeah, that's part of her power, she can see into the future and the past. She showed no fear of Lucifer, and told him she didn't have any intention to kill him, to set him at ease, giving the impression she could if she wanted too, in that particular circumstance, but she knew she was really there for Eliane.

Death knew what was going to happen, and just wanted to chat with the Morningstar for a bit.

Originally posted by zopzop
Full power or not, he WILL die one day, just not that day (like Death said). He's not above Death.

Then why did she agreed that she holds no claim on him?