Can Marvels Mightiest take down WF?

Originally posted by carver9
Through HIS magic? Is that how it works? I thought the magic from the Wishing well required a wish for it to happen? Also, Wendigo and Arm was covered in magic and was a 1000 times stronger. Why didn't their magic destroy the earth or the city they were fighting in when they were a 1000 ft tall?

Indeed. That is how it works.

And whose wish? Answer: Hulk's. Hence, he's still the WorldBreaker. It's just that it's through his wish, i.e.magic, rather than physical strength.

Same reason Hulk, Red She Hulk, and massively amped A-bomb and She Hulk didn't destroy the earth in THEIR fight, even though Betty and Bruce weren't holding back (remember, they thought they were still in the Dark Dimension).

Edit: Hulk and Red She Hulk were also amped (they had absorbed the nukes). So even more powerful than when Hulk had destroyed Umar's realm. The other Hulks had also gone insane, so Def weren't holding back - and Red She Hulk was explicitly WBH level before the amp, due to Hulk's wish.

And it was stated on panel that they were about to destroy Earth. What wish did Hulk say that caused Umar planet to be destroyed

Originally posted by carver9
And it was stated on panel that they were about to destroy Earth. What wish did Hulk say that caused Umar planet to be destroyed

They were about to, yes. But note that Red She Hulk, who was EXPLICITLY WBH level, then got AMPED massively (she became 1000ft tall and stomped an amped Foom) AND had gotten insane.....didn't even affect the humans next to her when she was fighting Jen and Rick (also amped and 1000ft tall). You cannot ignore this, it's very clear.

As for the wish, we can say....the wish that they all die/get destroyed. Remember, the whole point of the well is that your wish doesn't have to be explicit. BiBeast wished for Hulk to be wiped off the face of the Earth - technically, that's what happened (he went to the Dark Dimension). ArmCheddon wished for him to suffer as he suffered - so technically, that's what happened (they all burned and died and reformed).

So WBH wishing for his enemies to die and reform for all eternity - well, that is precisely what happened. They all die BECAUSE of the wish, then reform. In a neutral zone, where there were no innocents (he even asks Umar this explicitly, and she says no, unless you find goblins cuddly).

Not because Hulk is that strong. Because we saw what happened when he got MASSIVELY amped and came to Earth (where there are innocents) - even though he thought it was the DD, and Betty (his equal, who was now MASSIVELY amped) was insanely fighting - no damage occurred.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
[B]They were about to, yes. But note that Red She Hulk, who was EXPLICITLY WBH level, then got AMPED massively (she became 1000ft tall and stomped an amped Foom) AND had gotten insane.....didn't even affect the humans next to her when she was fighting Jen and Rick (also amped and 1000ft tall). You cannot ignore this, it's very clear.

Can you really use that line of argument? 99% of the time when planet destroying characters fight, they don't end up destroying the planet, whether it's in Marvel, DC, or Dragon Ball Z. That's just how these things work in fiction.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's just how these things work in fiction.

True:

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Can you really use that line of argument? 99% of the time when planet destroying characters fight, they don't end up destroying the planet, whether it's in Marvel, DC, or Dragon Ball Z. That's just how these things work in fiction.

Two things:

1. It was a riposte to Carver - a DBZ fan, where collateral damage is king - who asked why Wendigo et Al didn't destroy the Earth when THEY fought.

2. Even ignoring that, it seems pretty inconsistent considering just a few pages/panels earlier, a weaker Hulk/She-Rulk destroyed a planet just as a side effect -IOW, this was the 1% of the time planet destroyers actually destroyed a planet. The only difference being, now the Hulks were in the presence of innocent beings, so Hulk's wish that they all die in the fighting/then get resurrected was now invalid.

The whole point of WBH was that he DOES cause planetary collateral destruction. That's his entire point, so what happens in 99% of other fights is moot, as they don't involve a character who breaks worlds as collateral damage.

Granted it's a bit more excusable when there are wacky energy and dimensional powers involved rather than just pure brute strength, but if we were to assume every character followed the proper physics of what super strength and speed would imply, then we'd have to wonder why the Hulk doesn't end up in space by jumping faster than escape velocity, or why Superman create a shockwave like a thermonuclear bomb every time he throws a punch.

There's a bit of suspension of disbelief that needs to be invoked.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Granted it's a bit more excusable when there are wacky energy and dimensional powers involved rather than just pure brute strength, but if we were to assume every character followed the proper physics of what super strength and speed would imply, then we'd have to wonder why the Hulk doesn't end up in space by jumping faster than escape velocity, or why Superman create a shockwave like a thermonuclear bomb every time he throws a punch.

There's a bit of suspension of disbelief that needs to be invoked.

100% in agreement. See my two points above. After all, Hulk's pants never get destroyed.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not sure that I buy that as, IIRC, multiple Mindless Ones were also destroyed by that explosion, and it was stated that those creatures can mine the insides of neutron stars, which would indicate their durability is pretty insane. If I were to run the numbers on that, I'm sure it would go significantly beyond the planet + moon calc.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's from a different arc in a different book. Mindless ones gets destroyed all the time by street level heroes too.

I'm pretty sure we are talking about the same incident. But if not, no big deal. I have seen them knocked around and outmaneuvered, but rarely actually damaged or destroyed by anything but top tier force.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I'm pretty sure we are talking about the same incident. But if not, no big deal. I have seen them knocked around and outmaneuvered, but rarely actually damaged or destroyed by anything but top tier force.

"Top tier force", such as Blade's hand? 😛

Funny thing about Marvel & DC is that we can wank the hell out of those characters and their feats... but we can also lowball them all to shit, if we feel like it.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
"Top tier force", such as Blade's hand? 😛

Funny thing about Marvel & DC is that we can wank the hell out of those characters and their feats... but we can also lowball them all to shit, if we feel like it.

Well yeah, you can, but I'd need to see the context for that. IIRC when they were first introduced even Doctor Strange had trouble with them.

Anyway, I just realized that quibbling about the structural durability of matter in the Dark Dimension is actually irrelevant for planetary scale feats like that, because the durability of things like moons and planets is determined instead by gravitational binding energy. So as long as the gravity on the surface of that planet was comparable to Earth and it was of comparable size, it wouldn't really matter what it was made of, as it would still have comparable GBE. Same with the inverse-square law calcs used to calculate the destruction of the moon, as well.

Of course you can always nitpick about wonky magical physics, but there's no real way to prove or disprove that unless there is a new source of information that clarifies it.

According to that story, none of those guys can do it. Even if you combined them into one massively powerful entity they would still likely fail. This may anger people, but it just goes to show that Superman is as powerful as the story needs him to be. This should come as no surprise to anyone that has followed the character throughout his history.

However, in terms of battle feats, the World Forger like many others on his level of power have very few battle feats, and as such many can claim that they need to prove themselves before being launched to the top of the food chain.

Originally posted by Stoic
According to that story, none of those guys can do it. Even if you combined them into one massively powerful entity they would still likely fail. This may anger people, but it just goes to show that Superman is as powerful as the story needs him to be. This should come as no surprise to anyone that has followed the character throughout his history.

However, in terms of battle feats, the World Forger like many others on his level of power have very few battle feats, and as such many can claim that they need to prove themselves before being launched to the top of the food chain.

Do you know what issues the story takes place in?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Do you know what issues the story takes place in?

I’m embarrassed to say this. But no, I forgot the exact Justice League issue numbers. Perhaps Abhi, or Dark Saint may be able to help?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Do you know what issues the story takes place in?

@Dark, when did Hulk wish for his enemies to die?

https://ibb.co/RQT6mRJ
https://ibb.co/8bw8jpr

Originally posted by Endless Mike
because the durability of things like moons and planets is determined instead by gravitational binding energy. So as long as the gravity on the surface of that planet was comparable to Earth and it was of comparable size, it wouldn't really matter what it was made of, as it would still have comparable GBE.

Does the size really matter? Since as you said, celestial bodies' durability is determined by GBE, and the radius/size is variable. I think the more accurate way is to say as long as the gravity on the surface of that planet was comparable to Earth then the planet would have comparable durability to Earth

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Hmmm, just noticed this. I'm not too sure about comparable size part. From what I understand, the GBE(Gravitational binding energy) is U=-(3GM^2/5R) where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the sphere, and R is its radius.

Does the size really matter? Since as you said, celestial bodies' durability is determined by GBE, and the radius/size is variable. I think the more accurate way is to say as long as the gravity on the surface of that planet was comparable to Earth then the planet would have comparable durability to Earth

Well yeah, radius is the variable that involves the size. If you have a planet that is, say, only 10 km across, but has Earth's surface gravity, it is going to be a lot denser than Earth, but its total GBE will be much less.

EDIT: You can play around with the calculator here to see what I mean

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Calculator.html

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I'm pretty sure we are talking about the same incident. But if not, no big deal. I have seen them knocked around and outmaneuvered, but rarely actually damaged or destroyed by anything but top tier force.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well yeah, you can, but I'd need to see the context for that. IIRC when they were first introduced even Doctor Strange had trouble with them.

Anyway, I just realized that quibbling about the structural durability of matter in the Dark Dimension is actually irrelevant for planetary scale feats like that, because the durability of things like moons and planets is determined instead by gravitational binding energy. So as long as the gravity on the surface of that planet was comparable to Earth and it was of comparable size, it wouldn't really matter what it was made of, as it would still have comparable GBE. Same with the inverse-square law calcs used to calculate the destruction of the moon, as well.

Of course you can always nitpick about wonky magical physics, but there's no real way to prove or disprove that unless there is a new source of information that clarifies it.