Abortion

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I agree with an old Assistant manager of mine, whose opinnion surprised me (being as he was gay, and the most liberal person I had met up to that time)..... "They need to stop F*CKIN".

What the hell does that mean? Because he's gay or a liberal that he shouldn't be capable of comon sense?

And, I don't see how the mother being in danger should be any different than killing the baby before it fully develpos. Both avenues reflect some measure of selfishness. Have a baby, might die, better kill it. Don't wanna go through the long-term and painful process of pregnancy, better kill it. Life is life.

Which is a valid point. Life is life. There is no difference between killing an adult male, despite their actions, and killing a baby that might grow up to be a "bad" adult male.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
What the hell does that mean? Because he's gay or a liberal that he shouldn't be capable of comon sense?

And, I don't see how the mother being in danger should be any different than killing the baby before it fully develpos. Both avenues reflect some measure of selfishness. Have a baby, might die, better kill it. Don't wanna go through the long-term and painful process of pregnancy, better kill it. Life is life.

Which is a valid point. Life is life. There is no difference between killing an adult male, despite their actions, and killing a baby that might grow up to be a "bad" adult male.

Well first, it was a mild joke, seeing as how he was liberal,.. I(being a dolt), naturally assumed he was pro-abortion.

He actually was a very smart guy. I wouldn't think he had no common sense because of his sexual orientation.

I'm not a prejudiced biggot, don't make me out to be one.

And you're right, life is life, even if the mother may die, it is killing her child so that she may live.

People in the old days used to die in childbirth much more often, and there are some who feel that if it's God's will, then the mother should die and the child gets to live. ( I don't personally subscibe to that theory, though)

Lastly, the difference in the death penalty and abortion should be clear to you, Captain, you are a smart fella, as you have demonstrated in these forums often.

The baby is innocent, whether or not it "might grow up to be a bad adult male" (or female, why did you leave that out?) remains to be seen, and cannot be decided unless it happens.

A murderer, with no regard for human life, has been convicted as guilty by a jury of his, or her, peers is known to have committed the crime, and under current law, can be given the death penalty.

Many people don't believe in capital punishment, and if you are one of them, than do something about it. Write your congressman, or get into politics yourself.

But don't pretend that the abortion of a fetus (termination of life, killing of a baby, tamaeto, tamato,etc....) is no different than the execution of someone who has comitted a heinous crime.

Actually, scientifically, at the stage in which most abortions are performed (first trimester) the fetus is NOT considered to be alive.

Also, I love how people keep saying "use contraception". Guess what, it's not 100% effective. No matter WHAT you use there is a chance you can get pregnant, however small it may be.

If you don't like abortion, then don't have one. But you do not have the right to tell someone else they're not allowed to have one.

Originally posted by sithsaber408

I'm not a pregidous biggot, don't make me out to be one.

Nor am I trying to paint you as one.

Originally posted by sithsaber408

Lastly, the difference in the death penalty and abortion should be clear to you, Captain, you are a smart fella, as you have demonstrated in these forums often.

The baby is innocent, whether or not it "might grow up to be a bad adult male" (or female, why did you leave that out?) remains to be seen, and cannot be decided unless it happens.

A murderer, with no regard for human life, has been convicted as guilty by a jury of his, or her, peers is known to have committed the crime, and under current law, can be given the death penalty.

Many people don't believe in capital punishment, and if you are one of them, than do something about it. Write your congressman, or get into politics yourself.

But don't pretend that the abortion of a fetus (termination of life, killing of a baby, tamaeto, tamato,etc....) is no different than the execution of someone who has comitted a heinous crime.

I appreiate you telling me I'm smart, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

It isn't a matter of the innocence of the baby vs. the innocence of the convicted murderer. The innocence of the guy pulling the switch on the electric chair is in question. The innocence of the judge or jury that dishes out the death penalty is in question. It has nothing to do with what the criminal did, it has to do with the society that condones the murder of a human being.

And to clearify, I am both pro-abortion and pro-death penalty.

Originally posted by Lana
Actually, scientifically, at the stage in which most abortions are performed (first trimester) the fetus is NOT considered to be alive...

I am sorry, but this is incorrect. It is considered to not be human. It is alive, both agg and sperm are alive and life continues until death.

Originally posted by Lana
Actually, scientifically, at the stage in which most abortions are performed (first trimester) the fetus is NOT considered to be alive.

Also, I love how people keep saying "use contraception". Guess what, it's not 100% effective. No matter WHAT you use there is a chance you can get pregnant, however small it may be.

If you don't like abortion, then don't have one. But you do not have the right to tell someone else they're not allowed to have one.

Agreed, all contraception is not 100% effective.

Abstinance is.

I know it sounds crazy, or "just not realistic", but people don't have to have sex.

I messed up and had pre-marital sex, but as my wife and I did our pre-marital counseling for 8 months, we made the commitment to stay pure from then on.

Let me tell you it wasn't easy!!! Especially after having "tasted" what I knew was there, and having sex 4-7 times each week.

But I did it. It's not impossible. Case in point, my wife is going to a bridal shower of her friend this weekend who will be getting married in March. The girl (Emily) remained a virgin till marriage. She is 23.

People shouldnt have sex before marriage, but they do.

People shouldn't shun their responsibilities of raising a baby that they made, but they do.

And I can too tell people what to do. People need direction, and parenting, all through their whole lives. Just because they are older doesn't make them any wiser.

We all know people who are in their mid thirties that act like children, and maybe a 17 year old who is wise beyond their years.

Or to quote Tommy Lee Jones in MIB: " A person is smart, but people are dumb, dangerous, panicky animals, and you know it."

Thinking we are all somehow "above" instrucion/correction is a huge mistake,.... and so is screwing around(whether promiscuosly or in a relationship).

These days not many people take responsibility for their decisons or mistakes, unfortunately, and 1/3 of my generation is gone, including an older brother I would have had. 🙁

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am sorry, but this is incorrect. It is considered to not be human. It is alive, both eye and sperm are alive and life continues until death.

✅

People shouldnt have sex before marriage, but they do.

If people want to, they can. It's not your decision, it's theirs.

And I can too tell people what to do. People need direction, and parenting, all through their whole lives. Just because they are older doesn't make them any wiser.

What makes you think it's your right to do so? It isn't. What other people do in no way effects YOU and YOUR life, and I can tell you right now that most people will not appreciate others meddling in such personal affairs. I can tell you right now that if some random person started telling me how I should live my life, I'd be pretty damn pissed.

It's not your business and does not concern you, and it's as simple as that.

OK talking about this issue is difficult because of all the heated emotions, so I will use an allegory.

This is how I feel about this issue:
I have a 19 years old cat. She is in good health, but she takes special care because she is old. I can take her down to the vet and have her put to sleep any time I wish to. You have no right to stop me or say that I am wrong. If I have my cat euthanized because I am tired of taking care of an old cat, then the karma I will receive will be negative and cause me suffering at some time in my life. However, if I have my cat euthanized because I wish for her suffering to end, the karma will be positive, and I will have comfort that her next life will be better.

So, you can’t say it is right or wrong without knowing the circumstances behind the abortion.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's also not a baby at that point.

What is it then? A dolphin, a monkey? It's a baby, only it is UNBORN. A fetus is just a fancy way of saying an UNBORN baby. If it isn't an unborn baby, what is it? Tell me, I'd love to know. Are you going to say it isn't a human? 😆 If it isn't a human, what it is? A dog, perhaps? 🙄

Originally posted by Makedde
What is it then? A dolphin, a monkey? It's a baby, only it is UNBORN. A fetus is just a fancy way of saying an UNBORN baby. If it isn't an unborn baby, what is it? Tell me, I'd love to know. Are you going to say it isn't a human? 😆 If it isn't a human, what it is? A dog, perhaps? 🙄

That is when they run away of just say "well, it's just not".

Face it, it is a human and it is alive.

Originally posted by Lana
Actually, scientifically, at the stage in which most abortions are performed (first trimester) the fetus is NOT considered to be alive.

Also, I love how people keep saying "use contraception". Guess what, it's not 100% effective. No matter WHAT you use there is a chance you can get pregnant, however small it may be.

If you don't like abortion, then don't have one. But you do not have the right to tell someone else they're not allowed to have one.

You are right with the last statement. I have many pro choice friends, who had to explain their opinions to me over and over before I finally understood them. I put myself in their shoes. I would say I am pro life (mostly) for myself, and pro choice (to an extent) for others.

Of course no contraception is foolproof, but two forms of it are better than one, each lowers your chance further. My comments were directed at those women who don't bother using it, and believe me, I've know some women who don't give a rats about abortion. My mother knew a woman who was younger than me, who had had 3 abortions in a year, she told everyone at her work she never used protection with people she didn't know. I didn't get that. Sounded backward to me.

I knew when she was going to have her abortion, and all day I thought about that baby, and how this women didn't give a fig about it, or what she'd done. I can't stand people like that. I know it was her choice, but sometimes women can be so irresponsible, it makes me ashamed to be a woman myself, because I know that once I start having sex, I'll be responsible. I'm younger than most women who have abortions, so if I can take care of my body, why can't they?

As for the fetus not being alive during the first trimester, you are partly right. Until the baby is BORN, it is only a human, when it is born, it's a human being. It took me ages to realise the difference, but I do now.

However, at 8 weeks the baby has a heartbeat, all major organs are formed, and the brain has begun to form. The baby doesn't have a celebral cortex until about 6 months, so if aborted at, say, 5 months, the baby will feel no pain. After 6 months the baby is given an anasetic.

As I said, I support abortions is certain circumstances. Not everyone who is pro life is against all death, it doesn't work that way.

Is everyone who is pro choice also in full support of the death penalty and euthanasia? No. Abortion and death penalty and euthanasia are different. Abortion deals with the UNBORN, the unfeeling, euthanasia and the death penatly deal with the BORN and feeling. There is a difference. A baby has no choice in whether it lives or dies. Someone else has that decision. With euthanasia, the individual can make that choice as to whether they THEMSELVES live or die. See the difference, AC?

I don't agree with the sex before marriage part. Some people don't want children, even when they are maried. Should they not have sex and consumate the marriage because the risk of falling pregnant is too great? Of course not.

I do wish women would be responsible, ALWAYS use protection, not only does it protect against pregnancy, but also against STD's and the like. I want people to take care of their bodies, not abuse them. That is all.

Mak, you overlook one crucial fact in each and every one of your posts.

That fact being that you have no place in anyone else's life. Sorry if that upsets you, but you don't. What you WANT and what's reality are not the same.

I don't care what you "want" for people, people most probably don't give a f*ck. It's none of your business. You can me all sanctimonius and patronising in saying "I want you to not abuse your body" but the hard reality is that abortions are completely necessary, some will abuse them and some won't, but in both cases you can do absolutely nothing about it. You don't have the right to try and make people aware, it's not your responsibility. Maybe they're aware there's other "options", maybe they don't. Either way, abortion is what they chose and you have zero right trying to change that.

At the point of abortion, to answer your previous question, the foetus isn't human, so it's not a baby. Which is another word of saying infant. The term "unborn baby" means that if born, it would be a baby. It's also only really used by people like you who seem to be so pro-life that you end up going back on yourself.

Sith, I'm not comparing abortion to capital punishment. I'm comparing killing and killing. You're pro-life for all life or you're a hypocrite, it's exactly that simple. You cannot say "You want an abortion? That's wrong. Killing is wrong!" "I was raped." "Oh...oh well kill it then. It's not bad as along as I agree with it."

It's also not murder by definition. A foetus is alive, it doesn't have A LIFE. There's a huge difference. Having a life is more important, so if life were that sacred to you, you'd be protecting the people already here instead of some unborn-could be, might be that's growing in a womb, not even self-sustaining yet.

The worst hypocricy is when Mak says something like "I'm for euthanasia and the death penalty but not abortion" but she claims to be pro-life. She's pro-execution and pro-mercy killing but not pro-killing something that's not even able to survive on it's own, and in the event of it's birth, may cause greater difficulty for the person who's already here.

-AC

So if a woman who is 8 months pregnant has an abortion, you fully support that because the fetus isn't a baby?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Mak, you overlook one crucial fact in each and every one of your posts.

That fact being that you have no place in anyone else's life. Sorry if that upsets you, but you don't. What you WANT and what's reality are not the same.

I don't care what you "want" for people, people most probably don't give a f*ck. It's none of your business. You can me all sanctimonius and patronising in saying "I want you to not abuse your body" but the hard reality is that abortions are completely necessary, some will abuse them and some won't, but in both cases you can do absolutely nothing about it. You don't have the right to try and make people aware, it's not your responsibility. Maybe they're aware there's other "options", maybe they don't. Either way, abortion is what they chose and you have zero right trying to change that.

At the point of abortion, to answer your previous question, the foetus isn't human, so it's not a baby. Which is another word of saying infant. The term "unborn baby" means that if born, it would be a baby. It's also only really used by people like you who seem to be so pro-life that you end up going back on yourself.

Sith, I'm not comparing abortion to capital punishment. I'm comparing killing and killing. You're pro-life for all life or you're a hypocrite, it's exactly that simple. You cannot say "You want an abortion? That's wrong. Killing is wrong!" "I was raped." "Oh...oh well kill it then. It's not bad as along as I agree with it."

It's also not murder by definition. A foetus is alive, it doesn't have A LIFE. There's a huge difference. Having a life is more important, so if life were that sacred to you, you'd be protecting the people already here instead of some unborn-could be, might be that's growing in a womb, not even self-sustaining yet.

-AC

The problem is, with people like you, a compromise can never be found so pro-life people will continually work for the illegalization of abortion. We all loose when we can’t compromise.

I'm not one of those "Awww babyyyy" people, so hell yes I support the abortion.

What you are still forgetting is, regardless of if you like it or not...it's nothing to do with you. You can't try to convince anyone not to do with their own body what they will, just because you don't like it. I'm pro-all abortions. I might not agree with why SOME women do it, but they are free to, because it's up to them.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The problem is, with people like you, a compromise can never be found so pro-life people will continually work for the illegalization of abortion. We all loose when we can’t compromise.

I don't believe the problem is people who recognise other human's rights to do what they want with their own bodies. I think the problem is people who force their ideals and morals on others.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not one of those "Awww babyyyy" people, so hell yes I support the abortion.

What you are still forgetting is, regardless of if you like it or not...it's nothing to do with you. You can't try to convince anyone not to do with their own body what they will, just because you don't like it. I'm pro-all abortions. I might not agree with why SOME women do it, but they are free to, because it's up to them.

-AC

An abortion for a non medical reason at past 6 months is murder. The baby can feel pain, and if it were allowed to be born, it would live. It's a viable baby, and that baby is killed, so it's murder. There must be a limit.

Originally posted by Makedde
An abortion for a non medical reason at past 6 months is murder. The baby can feel pain, and if it were allowed to be born, it would live. It's a viable baby, and that baby is killed, so it's murder. There must be a limit.

Why must there be a limit? Are you going to have an abortion? No. Then your case is closed.

Don't like 'em? Don't have one, but don't try to stop people who want one just because YOU wouldn't have one. It's none of your business or responsibility.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
...I don't believe the problem is people who recognise other human's rights to do what they want with their own bodies. I think the problem is people who force their ideals and morals on others.

-AC

Who's at fault does not matter, what matters is that in the US the supreme court is now stacked to change the law. It is only a matter of time. I could be wrong, but we are here because people on both sides refuse to compromise.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why must there be a limit? Are you going to have an abortion? No. Then your case is closed.

Don't like 'em? Don't have one, but don't try to stop people who want one just because YOU wouldn't have one. It's none of your business or responsibility.

-AC

So you have no problem with VIABLE children being killed by abortion, knowing that those children could live if born, but won't because their mother wants the child dead?

You sicken me. I respect the views of pro choicers, but I have never come across someone like you.