Abortion

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
What I'd like to know is why do you think abortion is immoral when it comes to selfish interest, and a woman becoming pregnant out of selfish interest is not immoral? I'm not sure why no one else has brought this up, but I do think it makes a valid point. You call abortion killing out of convenience. What about getting pregnant out of convenience?

Good Point.

I never said that a woman becoming pregnant out of selfish interests is not immoral.

But in my opinion, CREATING a LIFE out of selfish interests, is better than DESTROYING a Life out of selfish interests.

Is is unfair if a woman purposely aims to get pregnant to keep a man that is no longer interested in her around? To force a bond between she and the man she so badly wants to keep? I think so.

Her goal in pregnancy should not just be to keep a man to herself. The child is then nothing more than a tool for her, and that's incredibly selfish. If a woman WANTS to get pregnant, the child should be MORE to her than just a weapon or tool. She should recognize the child as HER child, as a living creature with its own rights to live, rights to have parents that genuily love it, and perhaps a way of cemmenting a definate love between she and her husband.But this is all subjective and probably overly sentimental.

*Even if her lover and she are not in love, if she wants to get pregnant because she WANTS to be a mother....than there is nothing wrong or immoral about it.

Regardless, I think it's less immoral to create a child out of self-interest than to kill a child out of self-interest. But then again there's so many reasons why I could be right or wrong about this.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
You can tell people to **** themselves all day for all I care.

The thing is, if you think it's wrong, then it's illogical to agree that it's ok to preform.

"I think stealing is wrong. Therefore I say people should not steal"

"I think stealing is wrong. Therefore I say people should go out and steal"

One of those sentences does not make sense. Maybe you can pick which one it is.

I never said "okay" to perform. I do think Abortion is wrong in most cases.

I do not think women should have abortions. I think a woman should realize her potential as a creator. That is one of the many things that separates her, if not elevates her from a man.

In the case where a woman takes the role of destroyer...destroyer of what would become her child...sorry. This sounds cruel and selfish to me, EVEN if the woman is NOT a cruel and selfish woman in general.

BUT.......................why should my opinion BAR a woman from getting an abortion?

YOU ARE FORGETTING....there is another MAJOR FACTOR INVOLVED: The Agony of Child Brith and the brutalization of the woman's Vagina. If the price for giving birth to a child was NOT PAIN or bodily tearing...then i would fight to ban abortion. If a woman did not have to SUFFER to give birth, i would be fighting to STOP abortion all the way.

But this is not the case. For a woman to give birth she has to endure the pain of it, and if she takes pain killers, she still has to suffer the tearing of her vagina, and the disfiguring of her body. I would never subject a woman to endure this SIMPLY because her actions go against what I beleive is the right choice to make.

Again...my opinion is a GREY ONE.....you are questioning me for not having a Black OR White opinion. Please refrain from doing so. Thanks.

Who mentioned anything about a woman wanting to get pregnant to keep her man? And is it incredibly selfish to create a life by accident? If a condom doesn't break then the baby never comes and nothing changes. If the condom breaks, get an abortion and still nothing changes. The baby isn't born in either case. There really shouldnt be so much controversy.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Who mentioned anything about a woman wanting to get pregnant to keep her man? And is it incredibly selfish to create a life by accident? If a condom doesn't break then the baby never comes and nothing changes. If the condom breaks, get an abortion and still nothing changes. The baby isn't born in either case. There really shouldnt be so much controversy.

You said "what if the woman gets pregnant for selfish reasons". I was merely giving you an example of what kind of thing would qualify.

By accident? No...it was unintentional. There is nothing selfish about getting pregnant, when the woman doesn't realize she got pregnant.

Nothing changes when the woman gets an abortion?

The fact that the woman is pregnant changes a whole lot, don't you think? If the woman had sex, even when she used protection, she needs to understand that there is always a chance of an accident occuring.

If she gets RAPED...then there was no choice involved, not even a choice to have sex in the first place. If she was FORCED into pregnancy, then NONE of this is her fault.

If she was having protected sex, but the condom ripped, or the pill didn't work or whatever, she has to understand that no matter what she took a risk. I think she should own up to responsibility for her or her lover's mistake.

The child may not be "born in either case", but the child does EXIST in one case. Again you are defining a human as something that COMES out of the Vagina, but when it's still in the vagina, it's like it doesn't even exist to you.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You said "what if the woman gets pregnant for selfish reasons". I was merely giving you an example of what kind of thing would qualify.

I believe I was the one who stated that.

I can see where you stand now I guess. I kind of relate to it. You would allow abortion only for the extreme. You don't agree with it, and you probably wouldn't allow your mom, sister, girlfriend, whatever to get an abortion unless it became extremely necessary. In other words, you believe it to be bad, but you also believe the problem would become much worse if abortions were band. I guess I can agree to that, maybe perhaps on a less strict level, but I can relate somewhat on your point.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I believe I was the one who stated that.

I can see where you stand now I guess. I kind of relate to it. You would allow abortion only for the extreme. You don't agree with it, and you probably wouldn't allow your mom, sister, girlfriend, whatever to get an abortion unless it became extremely necessary. In other words, you believe it to be bad, but you also believe the problem would become much worse if abortions were band. I guess I can agree to that, maybe perhaps on a less strict level, but I can relate somewhat on your point.

💃 💃 💃 💃 💃 💃

YES ! Someone finally gets me !!!!

I got you before, but now I'm curious.

You wouldn't allow your mother or sister etc to get an abortion? What happened to letting them choose? What happened to having no right to interfere?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I got you before, but now I'm curious.

You wouldn't allow your mother or sister etc to get an abortion? What happened to letting them choose? What happened to having no right to interfere?

-AC

Actually I wanted to comment on that.

I wouldn't stop them from doing so. In fact, If they don't want an abortion, i'd totally leave it alone and just be supportive.

I would never want to know taht i was responsible for convincing my mother or sister to undergo horrendous pain of child birth, JUST to prove to me that they are moral people.

That's absurd. I would only give my opinion as suggestion, IF i even give it at all.

The only time i would give my say is if i had a girlfreind who has my baby, and lets say i did want to have this baby. She says no, she wants to abort it, and I'm like "WHAT"? etc. We would most likely have a problem.

However, i dont want to have children, and i dont want to get married either in my future. I can't imagine having a life with a wife and kids...that's not for me. STILL....I'd want to talk to her about it, and see what other options we had. In the end, if she is absolutely certain that she does not want the baby, nor does she want to endure child birth, i'd leave it at that.

Does this mean I don't think Abortion is immoral? No...i still do. But sometimes you have to make the immoral choice to have a better ending. Sometimes the morally "right" choice ****s you up later in life.

Sometimes a positive action can lead to negative consequences, but it still renders the initial action positive. Sometimes negative actions lead to positive consequences, but still renders the initial action negative.

I didn't ask for your life story, I asked a question, all you had to do was answer.

Thanks.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I didn't ask for your life story, I asked a question, all you had to do was answer.

Thanks.

-AC

Correction: Potential Life Story 😛

But ne way, i still wanted to answer that before you asked it.
I didn't want anybody being confused as to my stance on this, because I failed to realize that my prior answer contradicted everything i said before.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're not ignorning an opinion, you're ignoring a fact. You can't not agree with fact and be taken seriously, because you are wrong. You can continue saying that you disagree with a fact, but you'll always be wrong because it is a fact. The reason we don't get anywhere is because of people like you.

You're an ignorant, foolish person. You ignore facts, why? Do they cloud your judgement? Yes, you prefer to rely on instinct and blind, selfish prejudice don't you? Shut up.

-AC

I don't ignore facts because they cloud my judgement, you fool, I just happen to have what is commonly known as A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION! How hard is it for you to get that through your thick skull?
Abortion is NOT all black and white as you would like to think.
NOT all pro choicers support EVERY abortion, and NOT all pro lifers are against EVERY abortion. Obviously you don't know any pro lifers/choicers, because if you did, you would know that.

Whats with the big pointy hats?

Originally posted by PrincessMary
I don't ignore facts because they cloud my judgement, you fool, I just happen to have what is commonly known as A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION! How hard is it for you to get that through your thick skull?
Abortion is NOT all black and white as you would like to think.
NOT all pro choicers support EVERY abortion, and NOT all pro lifers are against EVERY abortion. Obviously you don't know any pro lifers/choicers, because if you did, you would know that.

Regardless of your opinion, regardless of anyone's opinion, abortion isn't murder. That's the crucial piece of information that you are failing to grasp, and continuing to believe such does nothing but slow this debate down.

-AC

anyone who thinks abortion is murder, should have been aborted.

Originally posted by PrincessMary
I don't ignore facts because they cloud my judgement, you fool, I just happen to have what is commonly known as A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION! How hard is it for you to get that through your thick skull?
Abortion is NOT all black and white as you would like to think.
NOT all pro choicers support EVERY abortion, and NOT all pro lifers are against EVERY abortion. Obviously you don't know any pro lifers/choicers, because if you did, you would know that.

So you ignore facts because your opinion is different? That sounds like a great idea!

My opinion now is that nothing dies. I'm going to ignore faccts too. Now that nothing dies, can I run you through a meat grinder?

Of course not. You'd still die. You're an idiot.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Regardless of your opinion, regardless of anyone's opinion, abortion isn't murder. That's the crucial piece of information that you are failing to grasp, and continuing to believe such does nothing but slow this debate down.

-AC

I'm not stupid. I know the facts, but FACTS are SEPERATE from BELIEF. How hard is THAT for you to grasp?

I for one, respects everyones opinion, even if it may be the dumbest opinion in human history. flex

Originally posted by Philip_ll
I for one, respects everyones opinion, even if it may be the dumbest opinion in human history. flex

I don't think anyone who sees abortion as murder as stupid. I value everyones opinion, no matter how much I disagree. I certainly wouldn't jump on someones back about 'facts' and whatnot.

AC, one's personal sense of morality is independent of facts.

People have been using murder out of context for the longest. If your goal is to try to end that here in this debate, your goal is most likely futile.

It's not my goal to end it worldwide, but in this thread there are various people ignoring fact.

Princess Mary is getting pathetically hung up on the idea of "Well it's my belief!" So? Irrelevant. What is relevant is factual and undeniable info. That means that anyone believing abortion is equal to murder, is ignoring a fact. That means you are being stupid.

Mary, if you don't care about facts, get out. Plain and simple. If you're going to be stupid enough to keep pushing "Abortion is murder!" then I'll keep slamming you down with the fact that you are wrong. Like it or leave it.

It's that simple. Abortion is not murder and if you believe otherwise you are wrong. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, you are wrong. Why do I have to still educate you all on this?

-AC