Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As am I.I worded it wrong, that was my bad.
If the courts decide that killing a born baby is murder, legally, then fine. My whole point was that abortion isn't.
They're not to be considered as equals to grown humans with regards to murder, no.
Killing a grown man with a life, family, job etc is much worse than killing a just-born baby.
-AC
The courts do consider the killing of a newborn as being murder, i.e., a mother cannot kill her newborn baby and claim it as abortion. Also, abortion is only legal up to a certain time limit as discussed, after that, it is considered murder, medical reasons withstanding.
A baby is a person, so they are considered equally as a human with regards to murder. If a woman were to kill her husband and her baby, it would be two equal counts of murder, and morally (my personal opinion), I'd see the murdering of the child as being worse in this particular case.
I disagree with you there also as does the law, killing/murdering a baby would be just as horrible as killing/murdering a grown person.
Would you mind answering a personal question? Why do you have such a low(er) regard for babies?
Originally posted by RobtardSecond trimester abortions aren't illegal in California.
12 weeks at least in California, I think most states are the same or very close.Ok, you're right, even at 7 months it is sill a fetus, but do you seriously think that it wouldn't be murder if one were to abort the fetus that far along?
That's just being stupid, obviously miscarriages happen and it isn't necessarily anyones fault.
" The bevy of Supreme Court decisions mentioned in this report were in response to challenges to laws enacted by the states following Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton to clarify or, more often, to circumscribe these decisions. Although the Court in Roe v. Wade clearly gave the states the right, once a fetus has achieved viability, to regulate and even proscribe abortion except where appropriate medical judgment finds it necessary to preserve the life or health of the woman, the states did not need to codify the Court's guidelines in their statutes. Indeed, 10 states have no specific statutes dealing with postviability abortions.
Many, on the other hand, still have laws "on the books" that were overturned directly or de facto by the 1973 and subsequent Court decisions. For example:
• Three states (MI, NH and RI) have among their formal statutes laws that prohibit abortion after quickening;
• Five have laws prohibiting abortion in the third trimester (FL, GA, IA, SC and VA);
• Seven have statutes that permit abortion only when the woman's life is endangered (DE, ID, KS, MI, NH, NY and RI);
• Nine have laws prohibiting abortion after a certain number of weeks' gestation, usually 20 or 24 (CA, DE, MA, NV, NY, NC, PA, SD and UT);
• Eleven permit abortions only if the woman's life is in danger or if there is a "serious," "grave" or "irreversible" risk to her health (IN, MA, NV, NC, ND, OH, PA, TX, UT, VA and WY).
All are unconstitutional in light of the decisions mentioned earlier."
Homicide is a legal term. Post-viability abortions I don't agree with on ethical grounds without medically mitigating circumstances. That doesn't make them murder.
Well now, you can't really know that now can you. She may not have been eating right, she may have smoked, she may have intentionally harmed herself. A fetus has died, and under the same premise that a fetus should be treated like an independent human being, its death should clearly be investigated.
Originally posted by Grimm22
This coming from you is hilarious.Second, im willing to forgive people if they admit what they did wrong first.
Coming from me??
I'm not the one who professes who follow Christ's teachings and spread 'good will' and 'love', and then say I'm going to let some guy die even if he asks for my help.
Originally posted by Mr. Sandman
Coming from me??I'm not the one who professes who follow Christ's teachings and spread 'good will' and 'love', and then say I'm going to let some guy die even if he asks for my help.
If he admits he was wrong for what he did and asks god for forgiveness I will gladly help him.
No one is above redemption
If an abortion can be performed at or before this form...
http://www.visembryo.com/baby/10.html
Then it may be justified.
After this, a heart starts beating, making it a living being which killing it is murder
Originally posted by Grimm22You clearly know nothing about embryology or fetal development.
If an abortion can be performed at or before this form...http://www.visembryo.com/baby/10.html
Then it may be justified.
After this, a heart starts beating, making it a living being which killing it is murder
Originally posted by Grimm22
After this, a heart starts beating, making it a living being which killing it is murder
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_77.php
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Killing a grown man with a life, family, job etc is much worse than killing a just-born baby.
When you take into account that this grown man can defend themselves, and a newborn cannot, I like to think killing the defenceless is a lot worse.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've never personally seen or heard about an abortion case being tried as legitimate murder.
No, but one has been tried as manslaughter over here. An abortion doctor was put on trial for the manslaughter of a five month old fetus, after she gave a woman an illegal drug, which caused an abortion. Ironically, if she had have performed the abortion legally, she wouldn't have been trialed-it was the illegal abortion drug that led to charges being laid. She was aquitted of manslaughter, but if someone has been charged, and tried, for the manslaughter of an unborn child, who is to say that next time, murder charges won't be laid?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
We're not discussing trucks hitting females. We're discussing abortion, which isn't murder.
I haven't heard of the case you were refering to, but I found it interesting that the driver was charged with murder. Here in Australia, a young woman was hit by an irate driver, her seven month old fetus killed as a result. The driver was never charged with murder.manslaughter, as, by law, the fetus was not considered to be a human. I like to think a seven month old fetus is very much human. It's interesting that different countries have different laws, regarding abortion and fetal death.
You say abortion isn't murder. Fair enough, if that is the laws opinion, I have no right to judge it. Can I ask you a question?
If a woman, eight months pregnant, was beaten by her boyfriend, and as a result, her unborn baby was killed, should, in your opinion, charges be laid? Would you consider the death of the child an abortion? If not, surely charges would have to be laid, as abortion is the womans choice, and the woman wanted her baby to live, but had no say in the matter.
If charges should be laid, which? Murder or manslaughter? Bodily harm? I don't want to know what the law in your country would say in this instance, I want to know your own, personal opinion of what should or should not happen. I'd be interested to know. 🙂
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I don't see why the matter of an eight or seven month gestational age fetus is even relevant unless one intends to try to build a slippery slope fallacious argument. Can anyone here actually provide a case study of an abortion occurring in the third trimester without medical necessity?
No, but as I said a few pages back, if abortion is decriminalised in Victoria, Australia, it could mean that women could have an abortion up until birth, for whatever reason, without an evaluation.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Am I supposed to care what happens in Victoria?
Unlike you, I care about what happens in other countries/states. You asked whether we could provide proof of a woman having an abortion at eight months for no reason. I merely stated that this could easily happen in my State within the next few months.
Originally posted by NicholeSee above. Slippery slope.
Unlike you, I care about what happens in other countries/states. You asked whether we could provide proof of a woman having an abortion at eight months for no reason. I merely stated that this could easily happen in my State within the next few months.