Abortion

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yet...then again neither is someone with serious mental defects...however, both are human.

yes, but as people show different stages of mental handicap, they are given less "rights".

I used to work in a group home. Something like the freedom of mobility was certainly removed from some clients, for the good of both the client and society at large.

a person with mental defects to the degree that they are essentially an "infant" would have almost no rights, in a practical sense, or they would die on their own, much like the child.

However, do they have the right to live?

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, but as people show different stages of mental handicap, they are given less "rights".

I used to work in a group home. Something like the freedom of mobility was certainly removed from some clients, for the good of both the client and society at large.

a person with mental defects to the degree that they are essentially an "infant" would have almost no rights, in a practical sense, or they would die on their own, much like the child.

I have been a personal assistant for kids with needs for four years so I can confirm this is accurate.

People with mental handicaps typically have no sense of danger and will not hesitate until they experience the pain first hand, for example.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
However, do they have the right to live?

Foetuses and those with a mental handicap that makes them foetus-like? No.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
However, do they have the right to live?

Yeah. Are you are Spartan throwing them off a cliff or something?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, but as Doug Stanhope says, saying that abortion is only okay in case of rape, is like saying that, yes, the fetus does have the right to live and that it is a human being with rights....except if the father was an *******.

It just makes little to no sense.

Abortion due to rape isn't about the father, it's about the further trauma it will do to the mother to have the child.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Infants and those with a mental handicap that makes them infant-like? Absolutely.

Foetuses and those with a mental handicap that makes them foetus-like? No.

Originally posted by chithappens
Yeah. Are you are Spartan throwing them off a cliff or something?

well, I think Chit, that Bardock may be.

Originally posted by chithappens
Yeah. Are you are Spartan throwing them off a cliff or something?

The Greeks used to take the child out into the woods and chain them to a spike in the ground. That way it was nature killing them, not the parents.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
well, I think Chit, that Bardock may be.

Nonsense. I take it you are against "pulling the plug" in every scenario?

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Abortion due to rape isn't about the father, it's about the further trauma it will do to the mother to have the child.

So? Does the child suddenly lose the rights that you attribute to it otherwise because it might be more likely that the mother is traumatized. You know, a woman that already doesn't want a child, can be just as traumatized by being forced to have it.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
However, do they have the right to live?

I think the use of "right" is misleading here.

Children and infants have no rights so to speak. Giving them one right, but not others, is simply favoritism. essentially "I'm against abortion so, children have the right to life". However, I can't imagine a reasonable person saying that a 8 year old has the right to choose to smoke or to attend school.

The comparison I was making was that people with similar cognitive capacities as children have similar rights.

Bardock made the comparison much better than I, as we aren't referring to infants, and most reasonable people put abortions in the first trimester (though it is an arbitrary line). A adult with similar properties would be essentially a vegetable. At this point, not killing them is at the wishes of the family, much like a fetus.

Not as traumatized as a rape victim by far. And going through that trauma could cause her to drink or do other things that can harm herself and the baby.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So? Does the child suddenly lose the rights that you attribute to it otherwise because it might be more likely that the mother is traumatized. You know, a woman that already doesn't want a child, can be just as traumatized by being forced to have it.

This seems like a huge deviation, but that makes me wonder how did the human population rise so much in the 20th century?

Originally posted by inimalist
I think the use of "right" is misleading here.

Children and infants have no rights so to speak. Giving them one right, but not others, is simply favoritism. essentially "I'm against abortion so, children have the right to life". However, I can't imagine a reasonable person saying that a 8 year old has the right to choose to smoke or to attend school.

The comparison I was making was that people with similar cognitive capacities as children have similar rights.

Bardock made the comparison much better than I, as we aren't referring to infants, and most reasonable people put abortions in the first trimester (though it is an arbitrary line). A adult with similar properties would be essentially a vegetable. At this point, not killing them is at the wishes of the family, much like a fetus.

So I guess the question becomes, "when do you have (all of your) rights?"

Also, people don't seem to understand my argument as it was hypothetical. Even the actual situations where I personally would accept euthanasia (Terry Shivago, etc.) are still a step below foetuses, imo. It's purely hypothetical, as I know of no case anywhere where any human being with a mental deficit is foetus like in the three aspects I named. If they were, I'd support a decision to put them to death, it just doesn't happen usually.

Originally posted by chithappens
This seems like a huge deviation, but that makes me wonder how did the human population rise so much in the 20th century?

Maybe a lot of women actually want to be mothers and simply having the right to an abortion doesn't cause them to go completely insane and hire people to punch them in the womb for kicks . . . or something srug

Originally posted by chithappens
So I guess the question becomes, "when do you have (all of your) rights?"

Depends on the country you live in.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Not as traumatized as a rape victim by far. And going through that trauma could cause her to drink or do other things that can harm herself and the baby.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So, you think fetuses have rights. Why should they be killed in that case? Why?

Saying they have rights is going too far for me. I think except for the two conditions they should be allowed to grow into a sentient person, but saying it's a right goes too far in my opinion.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nonsense. I take it you are against "pulling the plug" in every scenario?

I wasn't trying to infer anything...

Umm, I think that if a person is only alive because a machine is sustaining them in a vegatitive state, the "plug can be pulled".

However, I'm terribly hypocritical on this issue in practice, I've advised a friend to have an abortion in the past..

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Maybe a lot of women actually want to be mothers and simply having the right to an abortion doesn't cause them to go completely insane and hire people to punch them in the womb for kicks . . . or something srug

Originally posted by inimalist
I think the use of "right" is misleading here.

Children and infants have no rights so to speak. Giving them one right, but not others, is simply favoritism. essentially "I'm against abortion so, children have the right to life". However, I can't imagine a reasonable person saying that a 8 year old has the right to choose to smoke or to attend school.

The comparison I was making was that people with similar cognitive capacities as children have similar rights.

Bardock made the comparison much better than I, as we aren't referring to infants, and most reasonable people put abortions in the first trimester (though it is an arbitrary line). A adult with similar properties would be essentially a vegetable. At this point, not killing them is at the wishes of the family, much like a fetus.

Well I believe, as is stated in the US Constitution, that all people are created with equal and the fundamental right to existence. I believe that a person is human from the moment of conception, they do not grow into humans or suddenly have that status conferred upon them at a certain stage in development.