Abortion

Originally posted by chithappens
So I guess the question becomes, "when do you have (all of your) rights?"

legally? 18 years of age.

my personal opinion is that rights don't really exist in the way they are being used here.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Even the actual situations where I personally would accept euthanasia (Terry Shivago, etc.) are still a step below foetuses, imo.

agreed

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Maybe a lot of women actually want to be mothers and simply having the right to an abortion doesn't cause them to go completely insane and hire people to punch them in the womb for kicks . . . or something srug

😆

Originally posted by inimalist
legally? 18 years of age.

my personal opinion is that rights don't really exist in the way they are being used here.

agreed

Originally posted by inimalist
legally? 18 years of age.

my personal opinion is that rights don't really exist in the way they are being used here.

😆 That made me think of the Dateline topic.

Trust me though, a lot of 18 year olds are kid-like. You should see these freshman in my dorm. I swear they have never never seen a nipple on late night HBO.

Originally posted by inimalist
legally? 18 years of age.

my personal opinion is that rights don't really exist in the way they are being used here.

agreed

Isn't it 21 in some countries...and don't you lose them when you get to about 80...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Rights are just a word for when the Government (I know I repeat this point constantly, but government = men with the most guns) grants you the natural freedoms that you always have officially.

Indeed, its a purely an abstract concept- there is noway to prove what rights people have or should have.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I wasn't trying to infer anything...

Umm, I think that if a person is only alive because a machine is sustaining them in a vegatitive state, the "plug can be pulled".

And that is what I meant as well, I don't really think that it is comparable with Spartans throwing their undesirable infants of a cliff, which, I took you infered.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
However, I'm terribly hypocritical on this issue in practice, I've advised a friend to have an abortion in the past..

I can understand that, it is a different scenario when once own emotions are involved. Which is why I don't actually approve of arguments like "If you found your girlfriend being raped by a guy would you kill him? Yes? Therefore the death penalty should be applied to rape". It's not logical.

Indeed, abortions are big things and cause alot of controversy.

The problem is, it depends entirely on your perspective of when life begins and what is life...

Which means your enforcing your views onto others by creating laws about abortion.

However, by extension you could say that the government is enforcing its view on when life is by making all murder illegal- who says a 15 year old is any more alive than a kid in a womb.

I guess, its up to the one with the most guns to decide.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Which means your enforcing your views onto others by creating laws about abortion.

Saying: "you get to choose"

Is not forcing a view on anyone but a fascist or voluntary slave.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Indeed, abortions are big things and cause alot of controversy.

The problem is, it depends entirely on your perspective of when life begins and what is life...

Which means your enforcing your views onto others by creating laws about abortion.

However, by extension you could say that the government is enforcing its view on when life is by making all murder illegal- who says a 15 year old is any more alive than a kid in a womb.

I guess, its up to the one with the most guns to decide.

As with most issues, you are indeed right about the last part.

Luckily, in a democratic government, "guns" can be slightly influenced by popular opinion, so convincing the opposition is quite of use, if possible.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Saying: "you get to choose"

Is not forcing a view on anyone but a fascist or voluntary slave.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Saying: "you get to choose"

Is not forcing a view on anyone but a fascist or voluntary slave.

Yes, but saying "you don't get to choose"

However, if the government says "You can choose to have an abortion" you are technically saying "You can choose whether or not the child is alive" now, any reasonable human being can extend this...and reach any desired conclusion...

Ofcourse, there is the safeguard that once it is born- it is defiantly human, but it still creates a hole in the theory of human rights. IMO.

I may oppose Abortion in most cases but I still believe people should be able to make the choice for themselves.

[edit]

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I may oppose Abortion in most cases but I still believe people should be able to make the choice for themselves.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yes, but saying "you don't get to choose"

However, if the government says "You can choose to have an abortion" you are technically saying "You can choose whether or not the child is alive" now, any reasonable human being can extend this...and reach any desired conclusion...

Ofcourse, there is the safeguard that once it is born- it is defiantly human, but it still creates a hole in the theory of human rights. IMO.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
[edit]

You said,

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Saying: "you get to choose"

Is not forcing a view on anyone but a fascist or voluntary slave.

I responded with

"Yes but you don't get to choose"

I meant that if your forcing your view by banning abortion.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, so does deciding that it is a human from conception. Maybe we should make sperms and eggs illegal to waste, potentially they could become a human being, like an embryo could.

Thats exactly my point- the lack of a concrete definition of when life begins creates a gap in the law...which can be exploited.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
However, if the government says "You can choose to have an abortion" you are technically saying "You can choose whether or not the child is alive" now, any reasonable human being can extend this...and reach any desired conclusion...

And no remotely reasonable person would . . .

You're attempting to exploit the slippery slope fallacy.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav

Thats exactly my point- the lack of a concrete definition of when life begins creates a gap in the law...which can be exploited.

Well, it's hard to determine. But at least in Germany we have a line where you can't perform abortions anymore.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And no remotely reasonable person would . . .

You're attempting to exploit the slippery slope fallacy.

No, I'm not.

I am just saying that the grey area of abortion has wider implications than just the termination of pregnancies.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, it's hard to determine. But at least in Germany we have a line where you can't perform abortions anymore.

We have that in the UK too, and i think its an important safeguard...

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav

Thats exactly my point- the lack of a concrete definition of when life begins creates a gap in the law...which can be exploited.

Life begins at conception, I think it's more of an issue of "when is it a human being that deserves equal rights".

Originally posted by Robtard
Life begins at conception, I think it's more of an issue of "when is it a human being that deserves equal rights".

My stance on that would be that it is born with those rights...I don't think you grow into getting them.