Abortion

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no they dont

Uh huuuuh.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
erm, am i lying then, and am i lying when i say my little sister is alrady accepted into cornell and the university of toronto in the second semester when i have the better grades and just didnt want to apply???? i mean, be clear, am i just making this up in ur oppinion?

You do realize how silly it is to prove something on the internet, right?

At this point, I would doubt the truthfulness of those statements. Someone whose logic ability is so sorely broken would have a hard time writing an essay on a test..that coupled with your severely lacking deductive reasoning and baseless conclusions doesn't bode well as a "top student", imo.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
its not the same since the validity of the statement i made is given credit by the man who made it. i did however, get to meet two nobel laureates last year

Ugh.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_D._Osheroff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_von_Klitzing

personally. and why is that..........surprise surprise, i was at the top of my physics class and my teacher, who also happens to be a distinguished phd herself, thought i shud meet them as i was interested and well versed enough in the stuff to follow the lecture and then have tea 😛 .

Double ugh.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but ofcourse, i understand now that all ive learnt about physics is based in wikipedia and even my basic understanding of it which leads me to disagree with you is wrong since your the one whos OBVIOUSLY has the real world experience with physics.

So, you make unverifiable claims to bolster yourself into expert opinion status so that your originally incorrect assertions in the manga thread could be right?

I mean, seriously. WTF?

Is this a joke or something? You can't be serious about making those claims and expect me to believe them after showing how little you know. (Or how poor your logic and understanding is of the things you read.)

^while all this time you expect me to beleive that same of you, that you have read books outside wikipedia{when its blatantly obvious that you cant even argue for the links you provided and are taking them at face value without knowng anything more on the subject}, and continue on to claim that you KNOW what you are talking about and that one needs to take a few colledge coarses{of course, hinting that you have taken them} on the subject to KNOW what you are talking about, and in spite your blatant ignorance of the subject, i still ACCEPT your claims and dont call you a liar.

but its nice to know where you are coming from, im curious though. in your oppinion, which grade HAVE i honestly passed?

{p.s. i beleive i posted some pics of my a level graduation QUITE a while ago on the members picture thread}

{p.p.s, if you have already resorted to denying my education simply so you can validate your initial attack on my lack of physical or mathematical knowledge, then there really is nothing more to debate over is there since you will obviously revert to ad hominem attacks }

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The ability to debate on topic still as prominent as ever.

-AC

minding one's own concerns is certainly on the downward trend

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^while all this time you expect me to beleive that same of you, that you have read books outside wikipedia{when its blatantly obvious that you cant even argue for the links you provided and are taking them at face value without knowng anything more on the subject},

I have already showed you where you were wrong.

I proved that you didn't know one of the factors of the supersonic speed of a shock wave because you totally missed a major reason for that speed in a static medium (atmosphere) which was medium temperature. (PWNED)

I also showed you where you said "hypersonic" when it is "supersonic". (PWNED)

I proved, with rather simple math, that your super duper powerful volcanic explosions were not faster than a fighter jet or missile. In fact, it was less than mach 1. (PWNED)

And I've gotten you to admit that the shock-wave slows down to mach 1 or lower after it exits the fireball. (PWNED)

I fail to see why you don't just admit you were wrong when such simple pwnage has occurred.

I've been wrong before, and I admitted it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and continue on to claim that you KNOW what you are talking about and that one needs to take a few colledge coarses

Did I claim to know what I was talking about? Did I? 😖hifty:

I can tell you that I provided a very credible non-wki source that matched with what I was saying...and it took no less than 2 minutes to find.

You see, sir, it doesn't matter whether or not I claim to know what I'm talking about. What matters is if it can be verified. Since what I said can be verified with all sources shown, even yours, sir, then it doesn't whether or not I claim to know what I'm talking about....because obviously I do.

Here's a quick summary...again...for like the fifth time:

The shock-wave quickly slows to the speed of sound once it exits the fireball. The Fireball, traveling VERY fast at first, very quickly slows to lower than mach 1

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{of course, hinting that you have taken them}

I didn't hint at taking them, bro. 😬

I straight up said I took physics in college. 😐

Now do you see why people think you are...not so smart? You...have comprehension problems, man.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
on the subject to KNOW what you are talking about, and in spite your blatant ignorance of the subject, i still ACCEPT your claims and dont call you a liar.

Actually, you have displayed the ignorance on the subject. Not me. I posted the "pwn" list above for you to see why you are wrong.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but its nice to know where you are coming from, im curious though. in your oppinion, which grade HAVE i honestly passed?

I have no clue. This is the internets. But based on your track record with physics, thus far, I can say you don't have a grasp of some simple fluid dynamics.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{p.s. i beleive i posted some pics of my a level graduation QUITE a while ago on the members picture thread}

ZOMG! That tooootally proves what you're saying! 😐

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{p.p.s, if you have already resorted to denying my education simply so you can validate your initial attack on my lack of physical or mathematical knowledge, then there really is nothing more to debate over is there since you will obviously revert to ad hominem attacks }

No, I did none the such. I defended myself from someone making ignorant claims. That's it. 😐 You just can't handle it and then all of a sudden become an "expert" with "connections".

^now your flat out lying. your point was to try and prove that i didnt have the background or knowledge required for the discussion and i was a wiki reader. i gave you my background as a result stating specifically what my qualifications are , now your humiliated, having made the previous assertions and resort to denying that i have such qualifications.

at no point in the discussion have you come even close to disproving my assertions. you add my knowledge of fluid dynamics when you yourself cant even make the distinction between shockwave and sound. its rich. i really dont care what you beleive since my student advisor LAST year was telling me to apply to cornell and brown. if denying my educational background is the only stepping stone you have left, then there is nuthing more to argue about.

Do you realise how pathetic you've made yourself look?

^you do realise that not one person notices or replies when you butt in and make off topic posts in a matter which is none of your business.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^now your flat out lying. your point was to try and prove that i didnt have the background or knowledge required for the discussion and i was a wiki reader.

No it wasn't. You can't even follow a simple conversation, dude.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i gave you my background as a result stating specifically what my qualifications are,

Which mean jackshit. I even illustrated to you how saying stuff like that is totally lame.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
now your humiliated, having made the previous assertions and resort to denying that i have such qualifications.

lol 😆

What's sad is you're serious.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
at no point in the discussion have you come even close to disproving my assertions.

Riiiight.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
you add my knowledge of fluid dynamics when you yourself cant even make the distinction between shockwave and sound.

Riiiight.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
its rich.

No, it's sad.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i really dont care what you beleive

You do too. 😐

Originally posted by leonheartmm
since my student advisor LAST year was telling me to apply to cornell and brown.

Edit - (I do not want to get into an academic pissing match. You're wrong, and that's all the matters.)

Originally posted by leonheartmm
if denying my educational background is the only stepping stone you have left, then there is nuthing more to argue about.

Your educational background means nothing when you're wrong. It just means you're wrong with an unproven educational background claim (which should indicate that you either didn't pay attention in class, or you're lying.)

Originally posted by Rain Dog
Do you realise how pathetic you've made yourself look?

If he doesn't, I think he knows now.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^you do realise that not one person notices or replies when you butt in and make off topic posts in a matter which is none of your business.

You've obviously noticed all his replies and now you've responded, just saying.

Originally posted by Robtard
Semen or a egg alone will not form a human being, so that comparison is absurdly ridiculous, not sure why people keep bringing it up, really, it's just stupid. There is a process, ie a sperm fertilizes an egg, then rapid cell splitting occurs, once this happens, the process of a human life has begun. This is basic biology.

Actually to the contrary. The fertilizied egg, just like the semen or egg, need to go through many developing phases most if not all directly supported by the mother or father in some way. If the fertilized egg was left alone...it would die. It needs the sustenance of the mother, if the mother doesn't eat...the fetus will die. Etc.

That line is minimal at best. It's just as arbitrarily decide as any of the other abortion lines.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually to the contrary. The fertilizied egg, just like the semen or egg, need to go through many developing phases most if not all directly supported by the mother or father in some way. If the fertilized egg was left alone...it would die. It needs the sustenance of the mother, if the mother doesn't eat...the fetus will die. Etc.

That line is minimal at best. It's just as arbitrarily decide as any of the other abortion lines.

The point was, just semen or just an egg is far different than a zygote, which life has already begun to form. So that comparison of masturbation to abortion is silly.

edit: wtf is up your your avatar, it's an eye-sore.

Originally posted by Robtard
The point was, just semen or just an egg is far different than a zygote, which life has already begun to form. So that comparison of masturbation to abortion is silly.

edit: wtf is up your your avatar, it's an eye-sore.

I am saying it's a pretty arbitrary line regardless. It doesn't have some magical "I'm the starting point" power. It's all just part in this huge chemical reaction we call life.

Of course all this definition stuff is really just semantics.

And, you are the one talking about eye-sorish avatars....you?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually to the contrary. The fertilizied egg, just like the semen or egg, need to go through many developing phases most if not all directly supported by the mother or father in some way. If the fertilized egg was left alone...it would die. It needs the sustenance of the mother, if the mother doesn't eat...the fetus will die. Etc.

That line is minimal at best. It's just as arbitrarily decide as any of the other abortion lines.

I see your point but disagree that a sperm is no more human than a zygote...not for abortion semantics either.

Edit - I see you mentioned semantics as well. It's true. That's what it boils down to.

I would hold a zygote to be much more special, from a biological perspective, than a single sperm cell.

However, I don't consider the zygote to have all rights of a human because it's not a human...much less a human being.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I see your point but disagree that a sperm is no more human than a zygote...not for abortion semantics either.

however, it is the same as the transition from child to adult

at two separated points in time, you can compare a person and tell quite obviously that one is a child and the other an adult. However, there is no demarcation point between the two. Like, you couldn't point to a specific moment in time when the "child" becomes and "adult" or whatever the next stage, though after a significant amount of development has occurred it can be recognized if compared at two times.

So, the problem isn't knowing the difference, it is knowing when to draw that line.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I would hold a zygote to be much more special, from a biological perspective, than a single sperm cell.

special?

Originally posted by inimalist

special?

Yeah? You haven't seen the chart of speciality modern Biology put out a few years ago?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah? You haven't seen the chart of speciality modern Biology put out a few years ago?

egads, no!

did the walrus beat out streptococcus?

Originally posted by inimalist
however, it is the same as the transition from child to adult

at two separated points in time, you can compare a person and tell quite obviously that one is a child and the other an adult. However, there is no demarcation point between the two. Like, you couldn't point to a specific moment in time when the "child" becomes and "adult" or whatever the next stage, though after a significant amount of development has occurred it can be recognized if compared at two times.

So, the problem isn't knowing the difference, it is knowing when to draw that line.

No agrument there. 😄

Originally posted by inimalist
special?

Yes, special as in God Jesus special. dur I know I live in Oklahoma and there are people living here who make that very same face while talking, but give a tad more credit. 🙁

Special is the best word I can think of to describe the feat accomplished to make the zygote. Sure, the Zygote is a single cell, but the egg and the sperm cell alone cannot grow into a human. They are the catalysts. A zygote can grow into a human with the proper environment. Which was Robtards point many pages ago. A sperm and an egg, individually, cannot.

Saying that those two should both considered equal, biologically, is incorrect, as they are not equal in a lab, nor in the uterus.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, special as in God Jesus special. dur I know I live in Oklahoma and there are people living here who make that very same face while talking, but give a tad more credit. 🙁

Special is the best word I can think of to describe the feat accomplished to make the zygote. Sure, the Zygote is a single cell, but the egg and the sperm cell alone cannot grow into a human. They are the catalysts. A zygote can grow into a human with the proper environment. Which was Robtards point many pages ago. A sperm and an egg, individually, cannot.

Saying that those two should both considered equal, biologically, is incorrect, as they are not equal in a lab, nor in the uterus.

Sperm and egg, no, because they only consist of one half of human chrosomes

Adult derived stem cells? you betcha

any other human cell under "proper environmental" conditions as well

also, you should be more specific about what you mean by "equivalent" or "equal". No 2 sperm are biologically "equal". There is no value judgment going on here, the "feat" is a product of genetic action produced by incoming information to the cell, in this way, making all action of sperm, egg, zygote and adult cell equal.

The complexity of the developmental milestone might be more than others, but I might argue that, as much later cellular differentiation and even later neurological pruning seem much more complicated than the fertilization of an egg or the reproduction of cells within a zygote.

Ultimately though, this question can be reduced further. Even if we accept fertilization of the egg as some demarcation, what point of fertilization is used? This may become less useful in legal discussions, but for an objective line, it is necessary. Is it at the penetration of the egg by the sperm? The fusing of the dna? all of these are continuous processes which don't produce discrete times where one can draw a line to say "this thing is now something else". It is only after the entire process of fertilization that one can say the sperm and egg have become a zygote (or does it become a blastys first?)

Originally posted by dadudemon
No agrument there. 😄

Yes, special as in God Jesus special. dur I know I live in Oklahoma and there are people living here who make that very same face while talking, but give a tad more credit. 🙁

Special is the best word I can think of to describe the feat accomplished to make the zygote. Sure, the Zygote is a single cell, but the egg and the sperm cell alone cannot grow into a human. They are the catalysts. A zygote can grow into a human with the proper environment. Which was Robtards point many pages ago. A sperm and an egg, individually, cannot.

Saying that those two should both considered equal, biologically, is incorrect, as they are not equal in a lab, nor in the uterus.

But neither is every successive step equal to it. It's still a random line. Sure, something's different. But a sperm or an egg are just as special as a zygote, just in different ways.

Originally posted by inimalist
Sperm and egg, no, because they only consist of one half of human chrosomes

Adult derived stem cells? you betcha

any other human cell under "proper environmental" conditions as well

also, you should be more specific about what you mean by "equivalent" or "equal". No 2 sperm are biologically "equal". There is no value judgment going on here, the "feat" is a product of genetic action produced by incoming information to the cell, in this way, making all action of sperm, egg, zygote and adult cell equal.

In context, it should be obvious what I meant by "equivalent" or "equal".

I think you're making this assessment because you still think I'm talking about this in an abortive context. This is not so.

Originally posted by inimalist
The complexity of the developmental milestone might be more than others, but I might argue that, as much later cellular differentiation and even later neurological pruning seem much more complicated than the fertilization of an egg or the reproduction of cells within a zygote.

And you'd be correct in doing so.

Originally posted by inimalist
Ultimately though, this question can be reduced further. Even if we accept fertilization of the egg as some demarcation, what point of fertilization is used? This may become less useful in legal discussions, but for an objective line, it is necessary. Is it at the penetration of the egg by the sperm? The fusing of the dna? all of these are continuous processes which don't produce discrete times where one can draw a line to say "this thing is now something else". It is only after the entire process of fertilization that one can say the sperm and egg have become a zygote (or does it become a blastys first?)

Again, I think you've confused the intent behind my words. I am not referring to abortion in anyway. I'm simply referring to the importance of the cells as far as their significance in potential goes. Leon was saying that a zygote is just as insignificant as a sperm or an egg. I'm quite sure many professionals would disagree. A zygote is not on the same level, biologically.

To take it back on topic, I don't think any of it is significant until a the complete, unique, DNA sequence can be derrived, for that individual developing in the womb. (Can we currently do so?)

5 months is fair enough on abortion, imo. If natal technology improves, then we need to move that date back.