Wally West vs Cosmic Thor

Originally posted by ODG
This was hardly ever a real debate. It definitely was not a good faith discussion. At best, interpret the last few pages as an unforced error resulting in a dressing down. At worst, consider it a coerced deconstruction of KMC trollery.

Please you'll hear no disparaging words from me. You're doing God's work.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yes, it is hardly a debate. Though you got the side wrong

First of all, You didn't recognize that combination of Flash family powers and the formula puts a strain on the speed force and that the combination of Flash family powers and the formula achieved the time stop are two different things

Yet, you ignoring all other possible interpretations of that scene

Then, you posted a theory of yours, based on a Flash comic. But you outright lied about the evidence of your theory in that issue

You later claimed you have explanation for this, which turned out to be you just repeated the theory you posted before

And even that theory is not exactly related to your original position

Yeah, you're certainly debating in good faith lol

I guess we all agree now that Wally added/mixed/merged/combined the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula to do what he did in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1. I mean... in no way did I just spend pages 6-10 of this thread trying to convince you that Wally did whilst you denying that he did.

Even though you accused me of being "stupid," or "babbling," or having "outright lied" with "nonsense". Oopsies. This was a simple, innocent, totally wholesome, not backtracking-at-all, accidental misunderstanding this entire time:

Friends? 🙂

Originally posted by ODG
This is a rare quaneuver. Abandon the original position you took and pretend that you were arguing something completely different. Takes a rare breed of KMC poster to attempt that. I salute you.

I guess we all agree now that Wally added/mixed/merged/combined the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula to do what he did in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1. I mean... in no way did I just spend pages 6-10 of this thread trying to convince you that Wally did whilst you denying that he did.

Even though you accused me of being "stupid," or "babbling," or having "outright lied" with "nonsense". Oopsies. This was a simple, innocent, totally wholesome, not backtracking-at-all, accidental misunderstanding this entire time:

Friends? 🙂

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Both qwerty and Smurph said he combined the two though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lmao.

All I'm saying is, we all agree he combined the two.

You are arguing he combined the two to stop time.

They're arguing he combined the two which resulted in Wallace feeling the extra drain.

Now what you are arguing has little to do with your original stance

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batmanhattan Who Laughs was time stopped.

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Repeated the same nonsense doesn't make it real

For your fan...I mean explanation to make sense. We need to assume

1) That timestop we saw in Death Metal is a virtual timestop/boosting Flash Family's speed When the comic itself not even alludes to

2) Even we assume your explanation about its use is as what you said, Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus it needs to make more assumptions to hold your original position

Oh, yes, we probably would be friends on other occasions/standing in the same side in other subjects. But in this particular debate? Your argument just completely terrible. Should I remind you how you outright lied about the issue you were referring to? or you didn't recognize the sentence you referring to actually isn't the meaning of what you think?

I wouldn't say you as a person(I.E when not concerning this subject) is dumb or hypocrisy or something. Since debates tend to get flaming when posters discussing.

However, in this particular argument, unless there is a mutual ground we can make in this argument( unlikely to happen. considering the several pages argument), the best I can say is a agree to disagree situation

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And lol about abandoned the original position I took. Please, pointed out where did I abandon my original position?

Now what you are arguing has little to do with your original stance

Goodness, I suppose when I engage with intellects of your level I can't help but mix myself up. Gosh darnit. I guess if we go back to when this conversation began, you were the one who always argued that Wally added/mixed/merged/combined the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula to do what he did in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1. While I was the imbecile over 4-5 pages denying that Wally ever combined them.

My bads. I will commit myself to being better. But your wisdom is simply dizzying at times. Forgive me.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Oh, yes, we probably would be friends on other occasions/standing in the same side in other subjects. But in this particular debate? Your argument just completely terrible. Should I remind you how you outright lied about the issue you were referring to? or you didn't recognize the sentence you referring to actually isn't the meaning of what you think?

I wouldn't say you as a person(I.E when not concerning this subject) is dumb or hypocrisy or something. Since debates tend to get flaming when posters discussing.

However, in this particular argument, unless there is a mutual ground we can make in this argument( unlikely to happen. considering the several pages argument), the best I can say is a agree to disagree situation

Totally all my fault, of course. 😬

Originally posted by ODG
Oh, of course! I am the one who abandoned his original stance! doh

Goodness, I suppose when I engage with intellects of your level I can't help but mix myself up. Gosh darnit. I guess if we go back to when this conversation began, you were the one who always argued that Wally added/mixed/merged/combined the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula to do what he did in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1. While I was the imbecile over 4-5 pages denying that Wally ever combined them.

Again, don't play dumb here. DS literally told you what phuck we are discussing about

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Both qwerty and Smurph said he combined the two though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lmao.

All I'm saying is, we all agree he combined the two.

You are arguing he combined the two to stop time.

They're arguing he combined the two which resulted in Wallace feeling the extra drain.

And now actually, it seems you just added more holes in your argument and your credibility 🙂

Originally posted by ODG
[b]Second, there is a very simple reason why Wally may have needed to tap into the Flash family's speedforce.

The first time he ever used Johnny Quick's formula in Flash vol.2 #91, he stopped time on his own. But that didn't prevent superspeedster, Max Mercury, from meeting with him during the time-stop and interacting with him for nearly an entire issue. Meaning someone who uses the Speedforce can ignore the timestop caused by Johnny Quick's formula.

And who do we have chasing them down in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1??? A crap-ton of Dark Multiverse versions of superspeedsters who are explicitly utilizing the Speedforce.

So if Wally wanted to time-stop all superspeedsters who used the Speedforce except for himself and his allies, he may have needed to add/mix/merge/combine Johnny Quick's formula with a little something extra. Namely, the Flash family's speedforce.

Somehow, you could never imagine such a possibility. I'm beginning to wonder if you even read Flash vol.2 #91. [/B]

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Also weren't you the one who brought up Flash V2 91, which I posted a scan from it that contradicts your theory?

Time wasn't frozen in that issue per the scan I posted, chump 🙂
https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

So, again, I suggest

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
You're just putting words in my mouth now.

I was responding to this post of yours. Because you claimed Wally stopped time based on this issue, and there is a good reason for Wally needing to combine the formula and the speedforce of Flash family's

However, in this issue you were referring to, time wasn't stopped. So it is unlikely Wally states he used it to stop time once before is referring to this issue

The same way it is unlkely the word "combining" means what you think it means

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

For your fan...I mean explanation to make sense. We need to assume

1) That timestop we saw in Death Metal is a virtual timestop/boosting Flash Family's speed When the comic itself not even alludes to

2) Even we assume your explanation about its use is as what you said, Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus it needs to make more assumptions to hold your original position

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Again, don't play dumb here. DS literally told you what phuck we are discussing about

And now actually, it seems you just added more holes in your argument and your credibility

I guess we all agree now that Wally added/mixed/merged/combined the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula to do what he did in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1. Go ahead and blame me for rejecting this notion and not promoting it the entire time from the get-go.

I am the one who lost track of this debate, after all. barker

Originally posted by ODG
Who even cares anymore?

I guess we all agree now that Wally added/mixed/merged/combined the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula to do what he did in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1. Go ahead and blame me for rejecting this notion and not promoting it the entire time from the get-go.

I am the one who lost track of this debate, after all. barker

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No one is saying that Wally didn't combine/merge/mix the two.

What is being argued is that the mixing resulted in an added strain on the SF, NOT that it resulted in a timestop.

A few pages prior, Wally explains that the SF is strained, with every superfast step the Flash family takes.

He uses the Formula.

Time stop ensues.

Wallace experiences a drain. Why?

The formula usage PLUS the Flash family's running, combined, is damaging the SF further, which is why Wallace feels a drain/like a drain.

Originally posted by ODG
Sadly, no, I don't think qwertyuiop1998 agrees with that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought he did, a couple of pages ago.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Basically what DS said

I'm arguing he combined the two which resulted in Wallace feeling the extra drain( the DS's post "they", the other one is Smurph). The timestop is a result from Speed Force Formula

I feel we can do this dance 50 pages longer and we still won't get any signs of progress

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Errrr, yes you are the one

I feel we can do this dance 50 pages longer and we still won't get any signs of progress

No, we still won't get any signs of progress. But I should be blamed for that. kinda

ODG is trolling for several pages now, wow, color me shocked!!!

Is he still arguing timestop in Flash 91 when it was Wally who was sped up the whole time?

What an idiot.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Please you'll hear no disparaging words from me. You're doing God's work.

Originally posted by ODG
But you 100% agree now that Wally added/mixed/merged/combined the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula to do what he did in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1. I'm the halfwit for disputing that notion from pgs. 6-11, after all.

No, we still won't get any signs of progress. But I should be blamed for that. kinda

What Carver-level reading makes you think we agreed on that notion( at least, your version)?

On the contrary, I basically disagreed with your notion in just a page ago 🙂

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

First of all, You didn't recognize that combination of Flash family powers and the formula puts a strain on the speed force and that the combination of Flash family powers and the formula achieved the time stop are two different things

You also seem to have lost track what your original stance is( and in the progress, unintentionally made a terrible referrence, which damaged your credibility)

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batmanhattan Who Laughs was time stopped.

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

For your fan...I mean explanation to make sense. We need to assume

1) That timestop we saw in Death Metal is a virtual timestop/boosting Flash Family's speed When the comic itself not even alludes to

2) Even we assume your explanation about its use is as what you said, Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus it needs to make more assumptions to hold your original position

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
What Carver-level reading makes you think we agreed on that notion( at least, your version)?

On the contrary, I basically disagreed with your notion in just a page ago 🙂

You also seem to have lost track what your original stance is( and in the progress, unintentionally made a terrible referrence, which damaged your credibility)

So are we arguing that Wally needed to use the Flash family's abilities as well to cause the time stop this time, because he needed to create a new version of the timestop due to the nature of the beings chasing him?

I mean..... plausible, sure. But that's not actually what's said, is it? Isn't this just us using our head canon to fill in a gap that may well exist due to a writer not following continuity?

^ So Wally didn’t say he was combining Johnny Quick’s formula with the Flash family’s abilities?

Cmon, mang. How dis discussion go past 6 pages already???

qwertyuiop1998 at least has an excuse given he some sort of sentient cabbage.

Originally posted by ODG
^ So Wally didn’t say he was combining Johnny Quick’s formula with the Flash family’s abilities?

Edit: he didn't do it to explicitly stop time. Basically, if he needs to do it to Thor here, he doesn't need the Flash Family present to do so.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He didn't do it to stop time, no. Which I think is the distinction that needs to be made. His sentence is in response to Wallace asking why he feels like a drain.

Except it doesn’t. At all.

I mean, there are literally only two instances ever of Wally using Johnny Quick’s formula. Which Wally literally says. And it’s not like we can compare the two to distinguish what happened to determine what Wally meant when he explained that he combined the formula with their speedforce abilities.

Don’t be a cabbage, Darksaint85.

I'm merely pointing out that there are two sentences that're happening in the scene.

1: Wallace asks what did he do, Wally explains he used the formula
2. Wallace asks why he feels like a drain, Wally explains the combination strains the Speed Force.

It doesn't mean that he MUST use the formula to stop time. Moreover, you're assuming writers keep continuity in there head and are..
.as devoted as we are. Ah, yes, in Flash v2 #91 he did this, so I must do the same!! But you and I both know they don't.

I mean, in Flash #91 he doesn't even stop time. It just looks like it, which Wally acknowledges he's not stopping time.

So for Wally to suddenly say 'ooh yes, I stopped time ' kinda shows the writer has no real idea.

Which means our head canon of 'oh, there are SF users here, so he needs to do extra steps and add abilities to stop time' doesn't mean anything.

MOREOVER......Cosmic Thor isn't a speed Force user. So......swings and roundabouts, and moot, really. Wally doesn't need to worry about whether his family are here or not, because he's not trying to stop a Speed Force user.