Wally West vs Cosmic Thor

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Also weren't you the one who brought up Flash V2 91, which I posted a scan from it that contradicts your theory?

Time wasn't frozen in that issue per the scan I posted, chump 🙂
https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

So, again, I suggest

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
This actually makes the feat more impressive, since Wally timestopped Batmanhattan, when the Speed Force was at its weakest

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And then I think we all agreed that the Speed Force Formula is the thing has timestop attribute and it's a different way tapping into the Speed Force, as it stated in the comic

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Or, let me ask you a simple question, what do you think is the thing that stopped time? And was TBWL timestopped or not?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Huh? Wally made the timestop statement right before the scan you posted, and he specifically attributed it to the Speed Force Formula, not it combined with Flash family's speedforce.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Wally stated he used Speed Force Formula to stop time once before

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So do you admit timestop is an attribute of Speed Force Formula, not an attribute that results from combining Speed Force Formula and Flash family's Speedforce?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Wally used the Speed Force Formula, which he used to stop time once before
https://i.ibb.co/TtQ1rVN/6.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Oh, I'm focusing, thus I asked you do you think timestop is an attribute of Speed Force Formula or not?

Huh? You are the one who made "there maybe exists some reason for Wally to combine the SpeedForce of other Flash Family's to time stop, and it somehow will help my argument" thing

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Ok, let me get this clear. You used this scan to prove that Wally timestopped Batmanhattan is a result from combining SFF and their abilities

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
But if it makes you feel better, then the answer is "no". The timestop is an attribute of SFF

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Here is my stance

But since you like to read some simple English, I will simplify it to you

1) Your "proof" is highly depending on the interpretation, to say the least.
2) The on-panel straight forward statements refer the timestop is a product of SFF, and Batmanhattan was timestopped by it

So which part did my stance get disproved? How did it get disproved? Based on what? Your still-not-giving explanation of the scan I posted?

Bruh, by all means. Twist yourself up so much due to your own self-inflicted frustration, that you start flopflopping now. Apparently, you're trying to argue that when Wally uses Johnny Quick's formula, he doesn't really stop time virtually.

Go ahead and affirm that position and I will deconstruct it in two different ways that reveal the fallacy of your new position. Just don't blame me for it.

Originally posted by ODG
... are you really trying to now suggest that Johnny Quick's formula doesn't effect a virtual time-stop? After all this spam:

Originally posted by ODG
Bruh, by all means. Twist yourself up so much due to your own self-inflicted frustration, that you start flopflopping now. Apparently, you're trying to argue that when Wally uses Johnny Quick's formula, he doesn't really stop time virtually.

Go ahead and affirm that position and I will deconstruct it in two different ways that reveal the fallacy of your new position. Just don't blame me for it.

I was responding to this post of yours. Because you claimed Wally stopped time based on this issue, and there is a good reason for Wally needing to combine the formula and the speedforce of Flash family's

Originally posted by ODG
[b]Second, there is a very simple reason why Wally may have needed to tap into the Flash family's speedforce.

The first time he ever used Johnny Quick's formula in Flash vol.2 #91, he stopped time on his own. But that didn't prevent superspeedster, Max Mercury, from meeting with him during the time-stop and interacting with him for nearly an entire issue. Meaning someone who uses the Speedforce can ignore the timestop caused by Johnny Quick's formula.

And who do we have chasing them down in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1??? A crap-ton of Dark Multiverse versions of superspeedsters who are explicitly utilizing the Speedforce.

So if Wally wanted to time-stop all superspeedsters who used the Speedforce except for himself and his allies, he may have needed to add/mix/merge/combine Johnny Quick's formula with a little something extra. Namely, the Flash family's speedforce.

Somehow, you could never imagine such a possibility. I'm beginning to wonder if you even read Flash vol.2 #91. [/B]

However, in this issue you were referring to, time wasn't stopped. So it is unlikely Wally states he used it to stop time once before is referring to this issue

The same way it is unlkely the word "combining" means what you think it means

Why is it so difficult to believe that even a mortal with great power such as the Flash (Wally) could be defeated by magic that bends time and space?

Odin Force users can manipulate time, because it is one of the abilities granted by this force. It can also bring creatures back to life under certain conditions, among many other abilities. Why isn’t it used more often? Plot. Doesn’t mean that the ability has been lost, it just isn’t used as often. It’s the very same reason why the Flash comic battles last longer than 2 panels. It’s to the point that it is OOC for the Flash to end the battle before his opponent knows that they are already in jail. Thor with the Odin Force never has to have hard core battles with the Juggernaut any longer, he could just wave his hand and BFR him to hel.

Thor can manipulate time with the Odin Force. He will not be stuck in time like a fly in amber, because he himself controls it, and has defenses against these shenanigans.The Odin Force doesn’t just fall asleep, it’s an ancient Asgardian spirit that lives in Thor. No character that can control time should ever have a problem with a speed steal.

Some may be held longer than others, but they will not remain in that state. You can’t use Batmanhattan as some proof that it would work on Thor. They both have different defenses. There are others would, or should not be affected by it at all depending upon their own defenses to such a tactic. Auto defenses, and actually being able to perceive or see the future before it ever happens, and live in that moment, even reverse that moment.

This is a situation that happens very often in comics, and there are reasons for this. At times the writers screw canon for a great on panel flashy battle. In the end neither the Beyonder, Doctor Manhattan, the Living Tribunal, Odin, or any other number of characters that control time should ever be stuck in it. That’s kind of goofy.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
You're just putting words in my mouth now.

Can Wally effectuate a virtual timestop with Johnny Quick's formula or not?

Maybe you haven't realized it yet, but you're in a catch-22. But it's a catch-22 based on comics. It's not a catch-22 based on my own twisted warping of logic.

But I'm not going to tolerate 3-4 more pages of you strawmanning me.

So just answer the bolded question and I will give you the very direct explanation for it that will make you think you are dumb for not thinking of it yourself. Like I have literally announced several times over.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why is it so difficult to believe that even a mortal with great power such as the Flash (Wally) could be defeated by magic that bends time and space?

Originally posted by ODG
This is the exact reason I forced you to answer that first question. I asked like... eight separate times until you finally answered. So that I could not be accused of strawmanning. So, here we are now:

[b]Can Wally effectuate a virtual timestop with Johnny Quick's formula or not?

Maybe you haven't realized it yet, but you're in a catch-22. But it's a catch-22 based on comics. It's not a catch-22 based on my own twisted warping of logic.

But I'm not going to tolerate 3-4 more pages of you strawmanning me.

So just answer the bolded question and I will give you the very direct explanation for it that will make you think you are dumb for not thinking of it yourself. Like I have literally announced several times over. [/B]

But tbh, I just tired of your babbling, again, like I said, if you have an explanation, posted it and we can proceed this discussion, instead of getting multiple pages that get us nowhere

Edit:

Originally posted by ODG
Now you're just pretending like the explanation I gave didn't totally deconstruct your own argument. Whatever. Onto the next goalpost, as it were. So, here we are now:

What actually phuck? You literally lied about your evidence in the explanation you gave

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Also weren't you the one who brought up Flash V2 91, which I posted a scan from it that contradicts your theory?

Time wasn't frozen in that issue per the scan I posted, chump 🙂
https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

So, again, I suggest

Originally posted by ODG
Have you considered just citing to times where Wally was defeated by magic that bends time and space?

Good point.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Ok, here is my answer: Wally can achieve a virtual timestop via SFF/One of atrributes of SFF is boosting his speed

So when Wally used it the first time in Flash vol.2 #91, he didn't lock out other superspeedsters utilizing the Speedforce. After all, Max Mercury casually showed up during the virtual timestop for nearly the entire issue to lecture Wally like a schoolteacher until Max got tired. That's a fact.

So superspeedsters that can utilize the Speedforce can basically ignore the virtual timestop that is caused by Johnny Quick's formula.

But Wally, Wallace, Barry and Jay were being chased by the Dark Multiversal superspeedsters who were utilizing the Speedforce in the first half of Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1. So how could Wally possibly lock out all of those Dark Multiversal superspeedsters ? Maybe by going beyond simply reciting Johnny Quick's formula and combining it with his fellow speedster's Speedforce? Which would drain his family further? Like, y'know... he explained he did on-panel?

I just don't think my initial question that spawned this discussion was unfair. I really don't.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
But tbh, I just tired of your babbling, again, like I said, if you have an explanation, posted it and we can proceed this discussion, instead of getting multiple pages that get us nowhere

Edit:

What actually phuck? You literally lied about your evidence in the explanation you gave

Originally posted by ODG
Good. Thank you for being constructive. I give you credit for not answering in the negative. I assume you understand now why taking the negative position would have resulted in mockery. In any event...

So when Wally used it the first time in Flash vol.2 #91, he didn't lock out other superspeedsters utilizing the Speedforce. After all, Max Mercury casually showed up during the virtual timestop for nearly the entire issue to lecture Wally like a schoolteacher until Max got tired. That's a fact.

So superspeedsters that can utilize the Speedforce can basically ignore the virtual timestop that is caused by Johnny Quick's formula.

But Wally, Wallace, Barry and Jay were being chased by the Dark Multiversal superspeedsters who were utilizing the Speedforce in the first half of Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1. So how could Wally possibly lock out all of those Dark Multiversal superspeedsters ? Maybe by going beyond simply reciting Johnny Quick's formula and combining it with his fellow speedster's Speedforce? Which would drain his family further? Like, y'know... he explained he did on-panel?

I just don't think my initial question that spawned this discussion was unfair. I really don't.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

However, in this issue you were referring to, time wasn't stopped. So it is unlikely Wally states he used it to stop time once before is referring to this issue

The same way it is unlkely the word "combining" means what you think it means

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

And don't you think your theory actually contradicts to your initial position, since Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Then you mentioned a theory of yours, which I actually posted a scan that contradicts the fundamentals of your theory( which even if the theory is true, it isn't directly related to your initial position)

Originally posted by ODG
This edit was unnecessary. But, whatever. I've answered every one of your questions. Blame me for everything. But go ahead and flopflop and answer my second question in the negative. I'll show you the catch-22 you trapped yourself in.

For your fan...I mean explanation to make sense. We need to assume

1) That timestop we saw in Death Metal is a virtual timestop/boosting Flash Family's speed When the comic itself not even alludes to

2) Even we assume your explanation about its use is as what you said, Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus it needs to make more assumptions to hold your original position

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batmanhattan Who Laughs was time stopped.

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Repeated the same nonsense doesn't make it real

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Repeated the same nonsense doesn't make it real

Originally posted by ODG
But, yes, this is all my fault. I assumed you read Flash comics. Read more plz, kthxbai.

Originally posted by ODG

^ Should I laugh at the irony of you being reduced to state of stupified silence capable only of parroting mimicry? No, I shouldn't laugh. I should be the bigger man...

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Repeated the same nonsense doesn't make it real

Repeated the same nonsense doesn't make it real

For your fan...I mean explanation to make sense. We need to assume

1) That timestop we saw in Death Metal is a virtual timestop/boosting Flash Family's speed When the comic itself not even alludes to

2) Even we assume your explanation about its use is as what you said, Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus it needs to make more assumptions to hold your original position

I don't understand the debate here .R u arguing that Wally didn't drain the others?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I don't understand the debate here .R u arguing that Wally didn't drain the others?

I'm arguing he combined the two which resulted in Wallace feeling the extra drain( the DS's post "they", the other one is Smurph). The timestop is a result from Speed Force Formula

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lmao.

All I'm saying is, we all agree he combined the two.

You are arguing he combined the two to stop time.

They're arguing he combined the two which resulted in Wallace feeling the extra drain.

Though I think ODG lost the track of this debate, he now arguing SFF results timestop, but other Dark Multivers speedsters can move in timestop, thus Wally needed to combine SFF and the speedforce of Flash Family to completely timestop TBWL's army.....Which actually isn't related to his original position at all

Oh semantics, continue

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Basically what DS said

I'm arguing he combined the two which resulted in Wallace feeling the extra drain( the DS's post "they", the other one is Smurph). The timestop is a result from Speed Force Formula

Though I think ODG lost the track of this debate, he now arguing SFF results timestop, but other Dark Multivers speedsters can move in timestop, thus Wally needed to combine SFF and the speedforce of Flash Family to completely timestop TBWL's army.....Which actually isn't related to his original position at all

After all, you didn't try to mock me for pages on end when I suggested that Wally combined Johnny Quick's formula with the boost of extra speedforce drained from his family.

I invited you to blame me for this, after all.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I don't understand the debate here .R u arguing that Wally didn't drain the others?

Originally posted by ODG
By all means, equivocate over the use of the term "combined" with other posters.

After all, you didn't try to mock me for for pages on end when I suggested that Wally combined Johnny Quick's formula with the boost of extra speedforce drained from his family. I invited you to blame me for this, after all. This was hardly ever a real debate. It definitely was not a good faith discussion. At best, interpret the last few pages as an unforced error resulting in a dressing down. At worst, consider it a coerced deconstruction of KMC trollery.

First of all, You didn't recognize that combination of Flash family powers and the formula puts a strain on the speed force and that the combination of Flash family powers and the formula achieved the time stop are two different things

Yet, you ignoring all other possible interpretations of that scene

Then, you posted a theory of yours, based on a Flash comic. But you outright lied about the evidence of your theory in that issue

You later claimed you have explanation for this, which turned out to be you just repeated the theory you posted before

And even that theory is not exactly related to your original position

Yeah, you're certainly debating in good faith lol