Originally posted by StoicFull stop. I don't know why you would lump Lobo in here either. And the rest of your assertions are just baffling.
So then, it is as I speculated. Shazam’s punches against anyone who is vulnerable to magic are buffed. This means that Hyperion takes a harder punch from him, as didLobo, Superman, and every other character that is vulnerable to magic.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would a serious Superman's durability go up?My point is that it hurt him. Pretty badly. Begging Billy to come to his senses won't affect his durability.
If I beg Mike Tyson to snap out of a coke filled rampage, does my durability lessen compared to if I was fighting him seriously? No, I'm still getting punched out. Doesn't matter if I'm begging him to snap out of it, or if we're in an official boxing match for the heavyweight title.
Glad to see you didn't even look at the other scans. Billy can just shrink himself and go to town inside Hyperion's head. Magical lightning in Hype's brain is no joke.
I understand, it hurt him. In a pitched battle at the speeds that these guys move, does Billy actually get to say Shazam? We can foresee how the battle would go, but the faster you move, the more difficult you are to be hit. Superman was begging him to stop, he did not necessarily have to be hit by the lightning. I understand the example that you are making. It hurt. It did not kill him.
Yes arracks hurt more when you are not expecting them. Durability increases when a character can guard against the attack, however that would not happen if the character isn’t expecting to be assaulted and are. It’s about as close to receiving double damage as you can get. No? Then ask a friend to punch you in the back of your head with all of their might.
I’m not asking about tactics. This has never been about tactics to me, nor who would win, just about weakness vs vulnerability. Thought I mentioned that several times?
Once more for good measure, Hyperion is vulnerable to magic, this does not mean that he would be one shot under conventional means by a character of comparable stats that happens to be magical.
You get it yet? I don’t care who wins.
Originally posted by Stoic
I understand, it hurt him. In a pitched battle at the speeds that these guys move, does Billy actually get to say Shazam? We can foresee how the battle would go, but the faster you move, the more difficult you are to be hit. Superman was begging him to stop, he did not necessarily have to be hit by the lightning. I understand the example that you are making. It hurt. It did not kill him.Yes arracks hurt more when you are not expecting them. Durability increases when a character can guard against the attack, however that would not happen if the character isn’t expecting to be assaulted and are. It’s about as close to receiving double damage as you can get. No? Then ask a friend to punch you in the back of your head with all of their might.
I’m not asking about tactics. This has never been about tactics to me, nor who would win, just about weakness vs vulnerability. Thought I mentioned that several times?
Once more for good measure, Hyperion is vulnerable to magic, this does not mean that he would be one shot under conventional means by a character of comparable stats that happens to be magical.
You get it yet? I don’t care who wins.
Nobody said one shot. Get it yet?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nobody said one shot. Get it yet?
No but it’s what you’ve been pushing for. You enjoy attempting to make whatever opposes your idea turns out to be helpless. Hyperion will not stand there helplessly stun-locked due to Shazam’s punches.
He may lose, but it will not be due to h him being allergic to magic. Weren’t you arguing that? Didn’t you want to make it seem as if Shazam would punch a hole in him, while ignoring his durability?
Did he do that to Superman? No? Well he wouldn’t do it to anyone else, which is supported by the myriad of other characters that he has fought.
Whether he wins or loses, it will not be a free for all for Shazam, he will have to work for it, as would Hyperion.
Originally posted by Stoic
No but it’s what you’ve been pushing for. You enjoy attempting to make whatever opposes your idea turns out to be helpless. Hyperion will not stand there helplessly stun-locked due to Shazam’s punches.He may lose, but it will not be due to h him being allergic to magic. Weren’t you arguing that? Didn’t you want to make it seem as if Shazam would punch a hole in him, while ignoring his durability?
Did he do that to Superman? No? Well he wouldn’t do it to anyone else, which is supported by the myriad of other characters that he has fought.
Whether he wins or loses, it will not be a free for all for Shazam, he will have to work for it, as would Hyperion.
No, it wasn't. I've said multiple times that it's not a one shot. No one is turning powers off with punches (lol).
You've been posting these strawmen over and over again - try it with someone else.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, it wasn't. I've said multiple times that it's not a one shot. No one is turning powers off with punches (lol).You've been posting these strawmen over and over again - try it with someone else.
No I haven’t, you’ve just had a difficult time keeping up, or you simply did not want to acknowledge canon. Shazam has more power over magical characters than non magical characters. Your intention to deny that fact has led to me making the same statement over and over, due to the general lack of comprehension.
Instead of posting Superman/Shazam First Thunder, or even checking out what I said, you post Shazam hitting Superman with a blast that did not destroy him, or KO him, it you claim that it nearly killed him, even though it did not even KO him. It hurt him period. This is quite different to what he did to the magical demons during First Thunder when he destroyed the creatures with ease.
He didn’t destroy Lobo either, and Lobo isn’t magical.
Originally posted by Stoic^ this, from page 1, is the core claim that I (and I think DS, if I've been following) have been responding to.
That Shazam is not Hyperions weakness. He can hurt Hyperion just like he can hurt any of the other characters that he has faced. Hyperion can also hurt him.
Originally posted by Smurph^ this has been my position, throughout.
i mean...being generous, your argument is: yes, Hyperion has a vulnerability to magic, but who doesn't? plus, Shazam never got the upper hand on an opponent just because the opponent was vulnerable to magic.
... and the problem is simply burden of proof.
We know that the version of Hyperion in this thread is particularly vulnerable to magic. Arguing about Sym or Lobo or Superman is like arguing that Ghost Rider's fire didn't work on Venom so it won't work on Martian Manhunter because, gee, they're both vulnerable to fire.
You refer to a character utterly irrelevant to the discussion, say something about that character, and act like you've proven something about the discussion. Just a sort of zany reverse-strawman.
Nothing about one-shotting. The point is just that your arguments about Sym, and then everything about all these other characters who have their own issues with magic (Lobo?) are irrelevant. It's been five pages of red herrings and strawmen.
Sym has more power over non magical objects and characters than Shazam does. Unless we want to claim that Shazam can snap Adamantium like a twig?
What I was saying about Sym was that Shazam would have absolute power over him, and this is based on First Thunder. Shazam shows his ability to destroy beings that are a lot like Sym, as opposed to how well he does against non magical beings that are not like Sym at all. Lobo, and Superman are not like Sym at all.
When Shazam hits non magical characters he hurts them. That is a big difference to what he did to the magical demons. If you have not yet read First Thunder, read it to understand exactly why I believe that Shazam’s powers can not be used as the ultimate weapon against those that not magical but still vulnerable to magic.
For this statement to be re-explained over and over again appeared to have not been understood, as it was mostly criticized without even checking out why I made the statement. You say one shot, but you certainly wouldn’t have argued against it.
How does one scan allow people to ignore everything else surrounding these two? Is Hyperion being thought of as less of a physical threat than Lobo without clones? Shazam fought Lobo to a standstill. Shazam has hit Superman. It did not kill him. Superman and Lobo are vulnerable to magic as is Hyperion. Hyperion doesn’t have an allergy to magic.
Is this a fight to you, or a slaughter? I don’t care who wins, just how people view Hyperion, and other characters that are vulnerable to magic.
For this statement to be re-explained over and over again appeared to have not been understood, as it was mostly criticized without even checking out why I made the statement. You say one shot, but you certainly wouldn’t have argued against it.
I asked why you were saying the things you were saying, then I criticized the argument. Remember? You told me I had been "feigning ignorance"
Anyways, this is circular.
Originally posted by lawest9
It was stated in a scan a few pages back that he was.
Vulnerable. He does not have a weakness to it, he has a weakness to Argonite. Just look as it as if Shazam has on brass knuckles against non magical characters unless they are protected from magic.
This is simplicity itself. Not sure why people are confused when Shazam has never blew through anyone on his level because he is magical.
He may win but it won’t be due to Hyperion contracting negative effects from being around Shazam like he is when he is in the presence of Argonite.
Look it up. Argonite is his weakness not magic.
Originally posted by ODG
^ Nobody is arguing that Hyperion wilts once he gets within 15 feet of Shazam, bro.
Cool, then perhaps they will stop saying that he has a weakness to magic, when in fact he is vulnerable to it. This means that Shazam would ignore a % of Hyperion’s durability, just like he would ignore a portion of the Hulk’s, Lobo’s, Superman’s, Surfer’s, Blue Marvel’s, Wonder Man’s, etc.
Like I said, look at it as if Shazam wears invisible brass knuckles against characters that are not protected from magic.
He hits magical creatures for full damage as seen in First Thunder unless they are also protected from magic. Look at his fight Vi’s Superman, or Lobo, and then look at his fight against the demons that I mentioned. While doing so, take note of how well Superman did against those same demons. Superman is better than Shazam at most things but not when facing magic.
So just as you said that no one is saying that Hyperion would not wilt in Shazam’s presence, I’m not saying that he will not hurt Hyperion. I am saying that it will not be a one shot, but instead go to whoever can remain on their feet.
We can not ignore Hyperion’s toughness, and obviously ridiculously high constitution. He survived the destruction of his universe unless I’m mistaken?
Imo, this battle would be similar to a Thor vs Silver Surfer fight.
Does Shazam have planetary level strength? Has he ever lifted more than a mountain? Until DC52 arrived, Superman was not able to move the weight of Earth alone, so where does Shazam fit in?
So many things to consider before giving a one liner like this is going to be a stomp. That’s how I see it going down in canon if they should ever meet. Personally, I think that Shazam would eventually win, but it would be because he is simply a slightly better combatant than Marcus.