Originally posted by Robtard
Manhattan (Doomsday Clock arch) can reshape, restore and reboot entire universes. AFAIK, the Celestials have not shown that level of power.
They have, but it may have been retconned.
Anyway I hear that current Manhattan is massively multiversal, at least like Multi-Eternity level, so he should win.
Originally posted by Endless MikeIt seems to me that's actually been reinforced with the new Defenders: Beyond series out by Al Ewing. But it's not clear if the feats of the First Cosmos' Celestials can be claimed by the current 616 Celestial Host.
They have, but it may have been retconned.Anyway I hear that current Manhattan is massively multiversal, at least like Multi-Eternity level, so he should win.
Dr. Manhattan's retcons struck me as more of retconning 10 years away from DC's metaverse which systematically caused the DC multiverse to grow a new alternate universe(s). Jonn didn't twist around every single DC alternate universe simultaneously.
Originally posted by ODG
It seems to me that's actually been reinforced with the new Defenders: Beyond series out by Al Ewing. But it's not clear if the feats of the First Cosmos' Celestials can be claimed by the current 616 Celestial Host.Dr. Manhattan's retcons struck me as more of retconning 10 years away from DC's metaverse which systematically caused the DC multiverse to grow a new alternate universe(s). Jonn didn't twist around every single DC alternate universe simultaneously.
true, but it was specifically implied in death metal that doctor manhattan is equal to perpetua
Originally posted by ODG
^ What scene are you referring to again? If that were the case though, I don't think the Darkest Knight would have needed to redirect all of the Crisis energy being gathered into himself to take Perpetua on then.
connective energy manhattan wields is the opposite of crisis energy perpetua wields, ying and yang
And as of Defenders Beyond #2 it's made clear that the Beyonders (and by implication their creators, the Celestials) have infinite power.
Batman Who Laughs had the power of at least one Dr. Manhattan and he consolidated powers beyond that to combat Perpetua, and both of their powers were finite.
Originally posted by Astner
Originally posted by Astner
And as of Defenders Beyond #2 it's made clear that the Beyonders (and by implication their creators, the Celestials) have infinite power.Batman Who Laughs had the power of at least one Dr. Manhattan and he consolidated powers beyond that to combat Perpetua, and both of their powers were finite.
Perpetua could create and hold an infinite multiverse in the palm of her hand. Celestials aren't on that level, neither was Beyonder at any level.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Nothing in comics is infinite. Just yesterday a new Celestial was suggested to have power to destroy a few cities only when it's entire energy was released.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Perpetua could create and hold an infinite multiverse in the palm of her hand. Celestials aren't on that level, neither was Beyonder at any level.
Even after she had regained most of her powers she struggled to destroy individual universes.
- One of the Justice League (2018) issues, foget which...I think it's around #24, but can't look it up at work.
- Death Metal: Multiverse's End #1.
And let's not forget Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman's star-shaking punches.
Originally posted by Astner- Dark Nights: Death Metal #7.
If the Celestials are infinite (as implied in Defenders Beyond #2) then one of them would be more than enough to take on anything the "Divine Continuum" has to offer, with the arguable exception of the Great Darkenss and the Overvoid.
Originally posted by Astner
I haven't read A.X.E. yet so I can't comment on what you're referring to. But in Defenders Beyond #2 they are certainly implied to be infinite.
I like how that's not poetic license.
Poetic license aside, Perpetua's multiverse was never infinite. Her plan was to make it infinite by having it expand across the omniverse, that's why the Cosmic Raptor stopped her.
No, the multiverse was infinite.
https://imgur.io/gallery/8491bYr
https://i.postimg.cc/RFRq6z9N/image.jpg
Even after she had regained most of her powers she struggled to destroy individual universes.
I would like to see weakened celestial or Beyonder destroying a universe in one attack. Do show me those feats.
- One of the Justice League (2018) issues, foget which...I think it's around #24, but can't look it up at work.
- Death Metal: Multiverse's End #1.
When celestials can outright destroy universe straight up, do let me know.
And let's not forget Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman's star-shaking punches.- Dark Nights: Death Metal #7.
As opposed to the mountain shaking battle of the fourth host when they imprisoned Dreaming Celestial?
If the Celestials are infinite (as implied in Defenders Beyond #2) then one of them would be more than enough to take on anything the "Divine Continuum" has to offer, with the arguable exception of the Great Darkenss and the Overvoid.
Good thing is, even TOAA isn't infinite in marvel, forget about celestials. It took the combined power of entire Beyonder race to destroy a few hundred thousand universes BTW.
But Abhi does have a point about infinity being thrown about all the time.
The Speed Force is said to be infinite, for example. And Wally can use it fully.
Is he a match, then, for the Beyonders? I mean, the Celestials weren't said to have infinite power - you are inferring it (and rightly so, btw). The Speed Force IS explicitly said to be infinite, so do we take that as face value?
Just as an example, I'm sure there are others. Like a book with loads of pages, for example. Written by monkeys.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But Abhi does have a point about infinity being thrown about all the time.
The Speed Force is said to be infinite, for example. And Wally can use it fully.Is he a match, then, for the Beyonders? I mean, the Celestials weren't said to have infinite power - you are inferring it (and rightly so, btw). The Speed Force IS explicitly said to be infinite, so do we take that as face value?
Just as an example, I'm sure there are others. Like a book with loads of pages, for example. Written by monkeys.
No implications needed.
