Two points. Firstly, figurative expressions in some works do not discount literal expressions in other works.
Secondly, the Beyonders brought about the Blue Incursions during Time Runs Out, which were explicit universe-destroying feats, so they're certainly universe-busters. And the Celestials destroyed the First Cosmos (albeit with technology).
That said, there's no point for me to continue this debate until I've read A.X.E. because that too provides a contemporary presentation of the Celestials that has to be considered.
Originally posted by Astner
Two points. Firstly, figurative expressions in some works do not discount literal expressions in other works.Secondly, the Beyonders brought about the Blue Incursions during Time Runs Out, which were explicit universe-destroying feats, so they're certainly universe-busters. And the Celestials destroyed the First Cosmos (albeit with technology).
That said, there's no point for me to continue this debate until I've read A.X.E. because that too provides a contemporary presentation of the Celestials that has to be considered.
It doesn't necessarily mean the Celestials are infinite. If Tony Stark (as an example) builds a device capable of flying, it doesn't follow that he, without the suit, as a baseline human, can fly. The implication that the Celestials are infinite because they created infinite beings is VERY tenuous.
Moreover, infinite power can't affect infinite power. It just....logically doesn't track.
Yet America Chavez made the Beyonder bleed. The Beyonders are supposedly infinite - yet are afraid of non-linear threats, there are unstoppable threats that they cannot stop.
That doesn't sound like infinite power to me, if there are limits. Sounds like poetic licence, no?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yet America Chavez made the Beyonder bleed. The Beyonders are supposedly infinite - yet are afraid of non-linear threats, there are unstoppable threats that they cannot stop.
Originally posted by Astner
Two points. Firstly, figurative expressions in some works do not discount literal expressions in other works.
Let me guess, you're the only one who can make such distinction?
Secondly, the Beyonders brought about the Blue Incursions during Time Runs Out, which were explicit universe-destroying feats, so they're certainly universe-busters. And the Celestials destroyed the First Cosmos (albeit with technology).
It was a cascade brought by death of a Molecule man. It wasn't outright destruction of a universe by Beyonders.
They shattered first cosmos, it wasn't destroyed.
That said, there's no point for me to continue this debate until I've read A.X.E. because that too provides a contemporary presentation of the Celestials that has to be considered.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by MrMindI agree that their energies are opposite poles but am I missing something from this scan that suggests that Doctor Manhattan and Perpetua were equally as powerful as each other?
connective energy manhattan wields is the opposite of crisis energy perpetua wields, ying and yang
Originally posted by abhilegendInfinite power, yet he's "maybe" more powerful than Superman. Interesting. vin
Hell, he was straight up stated to have infinite power.https://i.postimg.cc/YqkcTGch/12-19.jpg
No implications needed.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Let me guess, you're the only one who can make such distinction?
Originally posted by abhilegend
It was a cascade brought by death of a Molecule man. It wasn't outright destruction of a universe by Beyonders.
Originally posted by abhilegend
They shattered first cosmos, it wasn't destroyed.
Originally posted by Astner
Anyone can make them. You just have to ask yourself, "does this interpretation make sense?" and be honest with your answer. If your interpretation of a statement is inconsistent with the overarching story then it's wrong.
And you think "Perpetua who created an entire multiverse must be limited but jobber celestials are infinite".
Makes sense if you are a marvel zombie.
No. You're confusing the Blue Incursions from the Red Incursions. The Blue Incursions were brought about by the Beyonders after they were summoned by the Mapmakers and Bridgebuilders.
Wut? Incursions were always due to the death of a Molecule man. Beyonders didn't destroy any universe in secret wars themselves.
I don't see how that would be less impressive.
Because it was only a universe, not a multiverse and only parts of it were shattered.
Originally posted by abhilegend
And you think "Perpetua who created an entire multiverse must be limited but jobber celestials are infinite".
And like I said, I haven't read A.X.E. so I'm not aware of how the Celestials are portrayed there. Could it be that Ewing's representation of them in Defenders Beyond is inconsistent with with their portrayals in A.X.E.? Sure. Could a figurative reading of "infinity" make more sense than a literal reading of it for the Celestials when accounting for it? Sure. Could Perpetua be more powerful than the Celestials? Sure.
But as far as I'm aware, this is not the case.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Makes sense if you are a marvel zombie.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Wut? Incursions were always due to the death of a Molecule man. Beyonders didn't destroy any universe in secret wars themselves.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Because it was only a universe, not a multiverse and only parts of it were shattered.
Originally posted by Astner
Perpetua being limited is not up for debate given the circumstances. It's not just the word "limted" was used, we have a full explanation outlining that Perpetua and Batman Who Laughs powers depleted over the course of the fight.And like I said, I haven't read A.X.E. so I'm not aware of how the Celestials are portrayed there. Could it be that Ewing's representation of them in Defenders Beyond is inconsistent with with their portrayals in A.X.E.? Sure. Could a figurative reading of "infinity" make more sense than a literal reading of it for the Celestials when accounting for it? Sure. Could Perpetua be more powerful than the Celestials? Sure.
But as far as I'm aware, this is not the case.
I tend to be equally critical of all works, but not overly-critical of any. It's just a better approach to debates.
No. You're misremembering. There were two kinds of Incursions, the Red ones where the Earths collided and that were stopped by the Black Swans with bombs that blew up one of the Earths under order of Dr. Doom; and the Blue ones where the Mapmakers found a universe and then summoned the Bridgebuilders who Ã_n turn summoned the Beyonders.
Yeah, it shattered the universe into a multiverse. Why would that make it less than universal?
But nowhere is it said the Celestials are infinite in power.
You are inferring it because their creations - who are designed to defeat them - are said to have no limits.
Then later in the same story, we see that they are indeed limited (linear beings, who can't risk attracting the attention of nonlinear beings).
Moreover, if the Celestials are indeed infinite, and the Beyonders are indeed infinite, how does infinite power defeat infinite power?
