DOS Doomsday runs the hulk gauntlet

Originally posted by carver9
Why don't we consider Sentry killing Molecule Man a full powered Molecule Man showing? Explain please.

See me in the relevant thread.

Anyway:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not my point, and you know it.

What level is Monica Rappacini at? It's a very simple question, and why is it different from Blue Beetle/Booster Gold et al?

DoS Doomsday took out Superman - and whilst you want to say that it's 'a' Superman, like you admitted, there is no canon reason why he was weakened or had 'meta tier' showings. We don't limit OTHER characters in the book, which is what you are having trouble understanding.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
See me in the relevant thread.

Anyway:

Also, we had this discussion a while back and I want to see you fold to me. Does this Jane Thor get all of her fts now? Remember, before hand you was saying we cant use fts from the Jane Thor that fought Mangog, different power levels. I'm asking you now, is the power levels the same and did Hulk bend FULL POWERED, all mighty, Phoenix Destroying, Mangog defeater Jane?

https://ibb.co/NFCTNRY

Yes or no

You did the same thing with Thor vs Hulk recent comics, saying that the power levels were different and we can't use fts from skyfather Thor previous showings, we should stick it out and see what he does in his fight against Hulk, you hypocrite.

I mean, you say they knew DD's power level, when the event made it clear Superman had no idea just how strong he is, and at multiple stages Doomsday kept upping the ante.

Originally posted by carver9
Letting? Answer this. Doomaday pounded on Booster Gold who had no shields for 9 panels...

https://ibb.co/NWh0M0D
https://ibb.co/GkskxWc

5 panels for Blue Beetle...

https://ibb.co/DbvzH5f

But it took one kick during Supes and Doomy first encounter to temporarily drop Supes...

https://ibb.co/R9Tn4L6

Why

Yes, letting... Do you somehow think he was forced to release his grip of Guy
from the impact of an energy blast? Especially when the much stronger more powerful grouping of energy blasts later didn't effect him at all (which, with more context, we later learn is partially due to being extremely adapted to overcoming energy attacks from long beforehand)...? No... He let Gardner go and can be seen immediately following that ignoring the same consecutive energy blast...

What do you think I need to answer?
People already offered the reasonable conclusion that Doomsday was conscious of the fact that Superman could take more punishment than anyone else there then upped the intensity on Supes.

I've already cited some of the multiple times that Doomsday simply proceeded to wander away rather than finish opponents. With Beetle, Doomsday is actively tossing him in the air away after the assault as he's calling for aid, and with Booster it is immediately following a scene where Doomsday tko's him with a single hit while his shields were still on and then again, walks away from him without finishing him off as he's mumbling about the Leage, and it is in the same comic, by the same writer... Who is btw, Dan Jurgens... The guy who wrote Doomsday in H/P giving Darkseid that 3 piece.

So, either, that is a moment of cis, which is in line with Doomsday's actions, and overall demeanor concerning the Justice League specifically, as well as coherently fits into the story without having to conflict with the characters, or the overall theme,. Or, it's pis even in a vacuum, because the same characters, with the same writer, in the same issue, had different results several pages earlier despite the fact that active shields and restrictive prison gear were still at play...

There isn't some third option where somehow because Booster survived an attack from an opponent, the story all of the sudden *isn't* about Superman meeting his toughest physical opponent maybe ever. It's a Superman story... Superman meeting his physical match is the story; That's the theme... Everyone and everything else in that story are being written around that theme, it isn't the opposite....
You *just* a little bit ago, *clearly* acknowledged low showings exist and clearly seemed to be comfortable compartmentalizing them away from your agreeable interpretation of a character, yet here, you are trying to take low showings of a character and apply them as the bar.... No... Doomsday's first feat in comics worth talking about is effortlessly propelling out of 60 feet of earth compacted over his head, bare minimum with a single arm to do it. You need to explain why failing to obliterate Booster matters more than all the instances that demonstrated he would objectively obliterate Booster, including the two other times he touched him resulting in practical 1 shots even with shields on... You need to explain why you think Doomsday was trying to kill *Booster* despite the fact that we saw him walking away from a downed *Booster* effectively letting him go....

Originally posted by carver9
Also, we had this discussion a while back and I want to see you fold to me. Does this Jane Thor get all of her fts now? Remember, before hand you was saying we cant use fts from the Jane Thor that fought Mangog, different power levels. I'm asking you now, is the power levels the same and did Hulk bend FULL POWERED, all mighty, Phoenix Destroying, Mangog defeater Jane?

https://ibb.co/NFCTNRY

Yes or no

Originally posted by carver9
You did the same thing with Thor vs Hulk recent comics, saying that the power levels were different and we can't use fts from skyfather Thor previous showings, we should stick it out and see what he does in his fight against Hulk, you hypocrite.

Originally posted by carver9
This is an excuse. Superman and the Justice League knew his power level. They even mentioned it. Doomsday was always on the move, so him being down there for that long is a TERRIBLE showing. No way around this.

Excuse: "Release (someone) from a duty or requirement."

There is literally a *reason* for what may have kept Doomsday submerged for a couple of minutes which has nothing to do with this imposed limitation you are hoping exists because of what Superman hoped which we did not see... Which conflicts with a direct comparison that we did see where Doomsday effortlessly flew out of the earth from 20 meters deep bare minimum. Try again.

Originally posted by carver9
We have a clear indication on how powerful Hulk is throughout WWH and Heart of Monster. We don't have the same for Doomsday (or the characters in the story) since the book didn't consist of any high, medium or average showings. The entire book was trash. So again, you can nitpick all you want but Hulk even before going WB was leveling cities just by punching someone in the face and shaking a planet. Even at his weakest he was pulling a planet together. Doomsday highest showing in DOS is taking out a Superman who got koed and had jelly legs from pillars falling on him and being kicked at him alongside getting koed by gas station explosions. Did Sentry kill full powered Molecule Man? Yes or no

We have an indication of how powerful Superman is from his entire career... The end.
We have a retroactive indication of how powerful Doomsday is before Dos even starts thanks to "year One"... Until the o.p. co-signs your interpretation of the discussion format, it is still significant.

You keep devolving to this gas station/pillars argument which indicates to me you are either trolling, or, are otherwise *completely* ignoring context when it is spelled out for you when it runs counter to your own agenda. There are something like half a dozen references to Supes being fatigued from the Doomsday fight itself, and yet you persist. Concede you don't understand what actually happened there since you keep bringing it up...

Originally posted by cdtm
I mean, you say they knew DD's power level, when the event made it clear Superman had no idea just how strong he is, and at multiple stages Doomsday kept upping the ante.

Lol excellent point.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yes, letting... Do you somehow think he was forced to release his grip of Guy
from the impact of an energy blast? Especially when the much stronger more powerful grouping of energy blasts later didn't effect him at all (which, with more context, we later learn is partially due to being extremely adapted to overcoming energy attacks from long beforehand)...? No... He let Gardner go and can be seen immediately following that ignoring the same consecutive energy blast...

What do you think I need to answer?
People already offered the reasonable conclusion that Doomsday was conscious of the fact that Superman could take more punishment than anyone else there then upped the intensity on Supes.

I've already cited some of the multiple times that Doomsday simply proceeded to wander away rather than finish opponents. With Beetle, Doomsday is actively tossing him in the air away after the assault as he's calling for aid, and with Booster it is immediately following a scene where Doomsday tko's him with a single hit while his shields were still on and then again, walks away from him without finishing him off as he's mumbling about the Leage, and it is in the same comic, by the same writer... Who is btw, Dan Jurgens... The guy who wrote Doomsday in H/P giving Darkseid that 3 piece.

So, either, that is a moment of cis, which is in line with Doomsday's actions, and overall demeanor concerning the Justice League specifically, as well as coherently fits into the story without having to conflict with the characters, or the overall theme,. Or, it's pis even in a vacuum, because the same characters, with the same writer, in the same issue, had different results several pages earlier despite the fact that active shields and restrictive prison gear were still at play...

There isn't some third option where somehow because Booster survived an attack from an opponent, the story all of the sudden *isn't* about Superman meeting his toughest physical opponent maybe ever. It's a Superman story... Superman meeting his physical match is the story; That's the theme... Everyone and everything else in that story are being written around that theme, it isn't the opposite....
You *just* a little bit ago, *clearly* acknowledged low showings exist and clearly seemed to be comfortable compartmentalizing them away from your agreeable interpretation of a character, yet here, you are trying to take low showings of a character and apply them as the bar.... No... Doomsday's first feat in comics worth talking about is effortlessly propelling out of 60 feet of earth compacted over his head, bare minimum with a single arm to do it. You need to explain why failing to obliterate Booster matters more than all the instances that demonstrated he would objectively obliterate Booster, including the two other times he touched him resulting in practical 1 shots even with shields on... You need to explain why you think Doomsday was trying to kill *Booster* despite the fact that we saw him walking away from a downed *Booster* effectively letting him go....

You keep mentioning him having the ability to hold back when that wasn't the case.

Scan 1... unrelentingly...

A destructive creature is on a path that could kill hundreds...

https://ibb.co/qnSHgPX

Does this monster just lives to destroy...

https://ibb.co/TYMJ1FX

And here's the most important scans of them all...

"If anything he's more single minded than Draaga was and he seems even more irrational than Lobo.

https://ibb.co/ZB5rLtW

There's no discernible pattern to his movements, he just seems to wonder place to place attacking whatever catches his eye.

https://ibb.co/nc9rxGv

Doomsday was a monster that had only one thought pattern, destroy. Nothing in that comic proved he was holding back. If anything, the opposite was said.

Originally posted by carver9
You keep mentioning him having the ability to hold back when that wasn't the case.

Scan 1... unrelentingly...

A destructive creature is on a path that could kill hundreds...

https://ibb.co/qnSHgPX

Does this monster just lives to destroy...

https://ibb.co/TYMJ1FX

And here's the most important scans of them all...

"If anything he's more single minded than Draaga was and he seems even more irrational than Lobo.

https://ibb.co/ZB5rLtW

There's no discernible pattern to his movements, he just seems to wonder place to place attacking whatever catches his eye.

https://ibb.co/nc9rxGv

Doomsday was a monster that had only one thought pattern, destroy. Nothing in that comic proved he was holding back. If anything, the opposite was said.

So we establish Doomsday is irrational and random with scans saying he's irrational and random.

You're doing a good job bolstering his points.

Originally posted by cdtm
So we establish Doomsday is irrational and random with scans saying he's irrational and random.

You're doing a good job bolstering his points.

He's single minded, one track. Doesn't put thought into what he does. Hes walking destruction

Originally posted by carver9
He's single minded, one track. Doesn't put thought into what he does. Hes walking destruction

And letting Guy or Kord go to attack the shiny new toy that caught his attention in Superman is keeping with his irrational behavior.

Unless you think somehow he was forced to spare them.

Originally posted by cdtm
And letting Guy or Kord go to attack the shiny new toy that caught his attention in Superman is keeping with his irrational behavior.

Unless you think somehow he was forced to spare them.

Guessing you didn't read the comic? Hint before you go and read it for the first time, Guy wasn't there by himself.

Originally posted by carver9
You keep mentioning him having the ability to hold back when that wasn't the case.

Scan 1... unrelentingly...

A destructive creature is on a path that could kill hundreds...

https://ibb.co/qnSHgPX

Does this monster just lives to destroy...

https://ibb.co/TYMJ1FX

And here's the most important scans of them all...

"If anything he's more single minded than Draaga was and he seems even more irrational than Lobo.

https://ibb.co/ZB5rLtW

There's no discernible pattern to his movements, he just seems to wonder place to place attacking whatever catches his eye.

https://ibb.co/nc9rxGv

Doomsday was a monster that had only one thought pattern, destroy. Nothing in that comic proved he was holding back. If anything, the opposite was said.

Doomsday initially threw a lazy attack at Superman, when it didn't work he upped the intensity immediately... This demonstrates for a fact that Doomsday wasn't going all out with every effort flat out. You can't argue around this.

Maxima's observations are irrelevant.
Superman is literally asking a question indicating he doesn't know.
"Lobo doesn't compare/To Doomsday/".... Scan literally foils your entire argument if you think these observations are worth referencing... If creature is irrational, you can't impose rationality on the creature for panels of context you didn't see. Being beyond compare with Lobo automatically decimates your attempt to keep this event inside a microscope...

Last scan demonstrates exactly what I said...

"Nothing in that comic proved he was holding back."

So Doomsday never let go of or otherwise walked away from heroes he could have finished off? He never did both at the same time with Booster Gold specifically and, despite Booster's shields and his own restrictive prison jacket? This never happened?

Carver simultaneously arguing that Doomsday was unthinking, whilst arguing he only thought of one thing.

Originally posted by cdtm
So we establish Doomsday is irrational and random with scans saying he's irrational and random.

You're doing a good job bolstering his points.

Lol right?

Originally posted by jinzin
Doomsday initially threw a lazy attack at Superman, when it didn't work he upped the intensity immediately... This demonstrates for a fact that Doomsday wasn't going all out with every effort flat out. You can't argue around this.

Maxima's observations are irrelevant.
Superman is literally asking a question indicating he doesn't know.
"Lobo doesn't compare/To Doomsday/".... Scan literally foils your entire argument if you think these observations are worth referencing... If creature is irrational, you can't impose rationality on the creature for panels of context you didn't see. Being beyond compare with Lobo automatically decimates your attempt to keep this event inside a microscope...

Last scan demonstrates exactly what I said...

"Nothing in that comic proved he was holding back."

So Doomsday never let go of or otherwise walked away from heroes he could have finished off? He never did both at the same time with Booster Gold specifically and, despite Booster's shields and his own restrictive prison jacket? This never happened?

Two different attacks. First attack Doomsday punches at Superman and failed so Doomsday followed it up with a kick and succeeded and knocked the wind out of Supes. That moment could have been what started Superman powers dampening from fighting Doomsday.

Why is Maxima observation irrelevant since she fought him and saw his destruction against members of the JLA? Is it irrelevant because you don't like it?

Lol... He's mentioning it being possible because of the possibility of a being existing that is as irrational as Lobo, not that he is doubting it.

Last scan doesn't dictate that since Superman is literally saying Doomsday have one track and that is pure destruction.

I never said Doomsday doesn't walk away from people. Even Lions walk away from prey but again, he doesn't hold back.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver simultaneously arguing that Doomsday was unthinking, whilst arguing he only thought of one thing.

Never said he unthinking, I said he followed the same pattern, destroy, kill whatever's in front of him and keep pushing forward.

Originally posted by carver9
Two different attacks. First attack Doomsday punches at Superman and failed so Doomsday followed it up with a kick and succeeded and knocked the wind out of Supes. That moment could have been what started Superman powers dampening from fighting Doomsday.

Why is Maxima observation irrelevant since she fought him and saw his destruction against members of the JLA? Is it irrelevant because you don't like it?

Lol... He's mentioning it being possible because of the possibility of a being existing that is as irrational as Lobo, not that he is doubting it.

Last scan doesn't dictate that since Superman is literally saying Doomsday have one track and that is pure destruction.

I never said Doomsday doesn't walk away from people. Even Lions walk away from prey but again, he doesn't hold back.

Two different attacks, the first of which was significantly less impactful, effective, or requiring of effort. Doomsday not going full tilt through the entire event still holds true.

Alright... Which part of Maxima's statements are worth taking into consideration? No one is disputing he's on a rampage... That notion adds nothing to the discussion.

Again, if you think the Lobo reference panel is worthy evidence of something then it obliterates your entire framework for argument because it:
1. Establishes that Doomsday is irrational... Therefore *you* can't impose your own rationalities on what Doomsday does at any given time through the merits of your own reasoning...
and
2. Acknowledges the existence of Post Crisis Lobo.. Therefore dismantling your necessity to keep Dos in a vacuum.

The last scan literally caps off talking about how Doomsday just wanders around, while also showcasing a panel where he's simply standing about inquisitively surveying his surroundings and going "Raur?"

"But/it doesn't hold back".... Which is why it's important to note what that sidekick was indicative of.... Since it firmly establishes that Doomsday infact did... For whatever his motives, many of which have been discussed in the thread... We know Doomsday wasn't going all out with every attack at every moment, we know he actively released downed opponents or walked away from them when he could have finished them off, we know that he was enjoying himself and his own antics up til Superman held the line... There's plenty there to indicate Doomsday could have been prolonging beatings for his own amusement rather than going for the finish immediately....
Yes, cats play with their prey... That is indeed "holding back" compared to what they *can*actually bring to bear in said situations.