Michael Demiurgos vs the Beyonder

Started by MrMind9 pages

your autistic interpretation not withstanding

this is his actual tweet. now let's let everyone read it and think, does he actually mean just a single universe with adjacent dimensions in this instance?


Originally posted by MrMind
your autistic interpretation not withstanding

this is his actual tweet. now let's let everyone read it and think, does he actually mean just a single universe with adjacent dimensions in this instance?



Speaking of autism. That tweet added nothing to what we already saw from him.

Go back and re-read what I typed. We saw Lucifer's entire creation when Elaine was flying over it. There were no multiple universes. Just a universe with its accompanying astral realms, I even posted the damn scan.

Originally posted by zopzop
You're not sure? Let me try explaining what I meant. Look at Carey's understanding of multiverse and universe. Now look at the dictionary definitions and scans I posted.

Does Carey believe :
A) a 'multiverse' is a universe and all it's adjacent dimensions, god realms, heavens, hells, and sub dimensions?

OR

B) A series of infinite universes. Like universe 616, universe14789, universe 256, universe 98989888888888888888888888, etc...?

Because they are two VERY different things. An honest reading of Carey's tweet cleaerly points to scenario A.

No, his tweets clearly spell out that universe = Creation = everything, all there is, the entirety of reality with all its trappings. So if you want to parse the "trappings" in terms of layers and series of infinite universes within that Creation, it makes no difference to Carey.

https://x.com/michaelcarey191/status/673788879464435712?s=46&t=oDK8I_Oetm0ZuZmqDJe_UA

"Both. Either. Both words are meant to describe "all there is" - but they see the structure of reality in somewhat different terms."

I'm not saying that we're stuck with Carey's interpretation or that ODG doesn't have a point about Lucifer v2 etc, but if we're arguing about dictionary definitions and Carey's words, I think his meaning is plain.

Originally posted by zopzop
You're not sure? Let me try explaining what I meant. Look at Carey's understanding of multiverse and universe. Now look at the dictionary definitions and scans I posted.

Does Carey believe :
A) a 'multiverse' is a universe and all it's adjacent dimensions, god realms, heavens, hells, and sub dimensions?

OR

B) A series of infinite universes. Like universe 616, universe14789, universe 256, universe 98989888888888888888888888, etc...?

Because they are two VERY different things. An honest reading of Carey's tweet cleaerly points to scenario A.

No horse in this debate, but just commenting on the Smurph's post about definition of universe here
I think the point here is in the tweets, Carey thinks Universe and Multiverse both mean the same thing(I.E everything)

Universe and multiverse = same thing defined differently, ie the all. The everything

Which is a (relatively) less used definition for Universe(at least, certainly not on battleboards)

Or a similar example is the fellow on quora asked similar question(I.E, didn't realize the now popluarized difference between Universe and Multiverse, or multiverses)
https://www.quora.com/If-the-universe-contains-everything-that-exists-why-do-we-talk-about-multiverses-Arent-they-supposed-to-be-a-part-of-everything-that-exists-already-in-the-universe

I.E, Universe in some instances(probably for the old people) carries the same idea as Multiverse/Omniverse and whatever, simply carries the meaning of a thing that contains everything

Edit:
Smurph ninja'ed me

Originally posted by Smurph
No, his tweets clearly spell out that universe = Creation = everything, all there is, the entirety of reality with all its trappings. So if you want to parse the "trappings" in terms of layers and series of infinite universes within that Creation, it makes no difference to Carey.

https://x.com/michaelcarey191/status/673788879464435712?s=46&t=oDK8I_Oetm0ZuZmqDJe_UA

"Both. Either. Both words are meant to describe "all there is" - but they see the structure of reality in somewhat different terms."

I'm not saying that we're stuck with Carey's interpretation or that ODG doesn't have a point about Lucifer v2 etc, but if we're arguing about dictionary definitions and Carey's words, I think his meaning is plain.


He literally says "to me that implies many realms or dimensions." That's literally scenario A that I listed.

Show me where we saw alternate reality versions of various Vertigo characters in Lucifer/Michael's creation. You can't because there weren't multiple UNIVERRSES there. There was just one universe with its astral realms (there weren't even immortals there).

Originally posted by zopzop
He literally says "to me that implies many realms or dimensions." That's literally scenario A that I listed.

Show me where we saw alternate reality versions of various Vertigo characters in Lucifer/Michael's creation. You can't because there weren't multiple UNIVERRSES there. There was just one universe with its astral realms (there weren't even immortals there).

You're cherry picking part of his tweet and ignoring the central point that he repeats over and over.

Lucifer and Michael made a creation. Something under which everything else is contained. A universe? Yes. A multiverse? Yes. A totality.

Just read Qwerty's post a few more times until you get it.

Originally posted by zopzop
Speaking of autism. That tweet added nothing to what we already saw from him.

Go back and re-read what I typed. We saw Lucifer's entire creation when Elaine was flying over it. There were no multiple universes. Just a universe with its accompanying astral realms, I even posted the damn scan.

how do you know there are no other universes? just because they use the term universe? can you actually tell just by looking at the picture? or are you still nitpicking

was lucifer lying here when he said he created a multiverse?

to put it in perspective

a tiny part of dream's power in dream stone can create 6 billion realities each had universes in them

and dream is shit scared of lucy

Originally posted by MrMind
how do you know there are no other universes? just because they use the term universe? can you actually tell just by looking at the picture? or are you still nitpicking

was lucifer lying here when he said he created a multiverse?


This should be easy then. Show me the other universes. Not astral realms, god realms, or hells. Show me Luciferverse 874, or Vertigoverse 1478. You can't.

Also a writer's tweet 15 years after the story was published doesn't mean jack if its not shown on panel.

wow so we have to show you something you make up in your own head by your own set of rules

but writer's intention don't mean shit and need to be ignored

do you see how ridiculous you sound?

Originally posted by MrMind
wow so we have to show you something you make up in your own head by your own set of rules

but writer's intention don't mean shit and need to be ignored

do you see how ridiculous you sound?


Way to ignore what I actually said. Show on panel proof of what you are saying. This should be easy right? Also look up forum rules regarding writer's comments contradicting or not being shown on panel.

A tweet 15 YEARS after the fact with no on panel support doesn't mean jack.

Originally posted by zopzop
Way to ignore what I actually said. Show on panel proof of what you are saying. This should be easy right? Also look up forum rules regarding writer's comments contradicting or not being shown on panel.

A tweet 15 YEARS after the fact with no on panel support doesn't mean jack.

i showed you, on panel, by lucifer's own mouth stating

lucifer: "hey zop, what i created is not a realm, it is a totality, a multiverse."

Ok but you're no longer claiming that the tweets support your position?

Seems like we made progress 👆

Originally posted by MrMind
i showed you, on panel, by lucifer's own mouth stating

lucifer: "hey zop, what i created is not a realm, it is a totality, a multiverse."


And I showed you scans where it was referred to as a universe both during Carey's run and by later writers. Now you have to show me ON PANEL proof that it's a multiverse. I'll wait. Because I showed you on panel proof that it was nothing more than a single universe with side dimensions.
Originally posted by Smurph
Ok but you're no longer claiming that the tweets support your position?

Seems like we made progress 👆


Look at the scan I posted from Lucifer series 1 regarding Elaine and Lucifer/Michael's creation, the dictionary definition, and what Carey tweeted (even though it's not admissable by forum rules).

Originally posted by zopzop

Look at the scan I posted from Lucifer series 1 regarding Elaine and Lucifer/Michael's creation, the dictionary definition, and what Carey tweeted (even though it's not admissable by forum rules).
I looked at it. I also showed you two other definitions from the same dictionary, and took you through what Carey said.

Originally posted by Smurph
I looked at it. I also showed you two other definitions from the same dictionary, and took you through what Carey said.

So then you can show me on panel scans of what you claim right? I'll wait. Because I already posted on panel scans of Luciferverse being referred to as a universe during Carey's run and years after Carey's run. I showed you on panel proof of it being nothing more than a single universe with astral/pocket realms DURING Carey's run.

Team Vertigo hasn't shown me anything yet except a writer's tweet 15 years after the story was written with nothing to back it up on panel.

Originally posted by Smurph
Ok but you're no longer claiming that the tweets support your position?

Seems like we made progress 👆

@Smurph
Post scans backing up your claim, until then I'm done with you.

Universe can mean everything, though. Marvel U, DCU....

Originally posted by zopzop
He escaped by tricking them, it's not like he broke out on his own power. They broke the spell's circle and opened the cage holding him :

Dream waited them out till one of them fell asleep, tricked them yes but he still got out on his own, through his wit. 🙄