watters think lucifer is geb
this is a response to odg on why i don't bring up lucifer v3, as he continue to ask me again and again to bring up v2 and v3, as if it disprove anything i said
it doesn't have anything to do with this battle.
kudos on you keeping up your selective pick and choose scans and alter it to your perspective though, nobody cares what you think
Originally posted by MrMindAbsolutely I want to discuss vol.3. Again, we don't deal with random writer tweets. But even I think the rather obvious intent is that hand represents the GEB's hand. Problem is, you should read what is being said in the panel itself:
uhhhhh what? do you really wanna bring v3 into this? watters think lucifer is great darkness
"All those Lucifers you have been and could be." Emphasis on the bold, underlined part. The Samael form, the Devil form, the Pan form and Blind Prisoner form he has already been. The only other form left that could be a potential future form is the GEB's hand.
It's also just a hand. And it's the wrong hand. The right hand showed up in American Gothic. The left hand is what's shown in Lucifer vol.3 #10. The left hand has since been revealed to be multiversal true form Darkseid, not Lucifer.
Some future potential form being alluded to? Not exactly the trump card you're making it out to be. Do I think Lucifer could be as powerful as multiversal true form Darkseid some day? Oof, I sure hope not. Probably be a downgrade.
Originally posted by MrMindAll that shows is a fallen angel was among a group cameo in the company of Upside Down Man and Trigon. Frankly, John Constantine has only ever met Lucifer once in Lucifer vol.3 #15. I'm thinking that's the First Fallen's form that was shown in Dark Crisis: The Deadly Green since Constantine actually has a much more storied history with him. But it's pointless to speculate. Neither Upside Down Man nor Trigon were the actual GEB. Suggesting that fallen angel was the GEB is fallacious. If anything, it's an aspect of the GEB. But Lucifer himself being an aspect of the GEB has not been proven yet and is utterly contradicted by both their on-panel histories.
we saw in dark crisis pariah drawing power from great darkness altering the dc omniverse and taking over multiverses. beyonder would be a literal gnat in comparison
Originally posted by MrMindAgain, read what you post. He has "passed through multiverses." He doesn't say he has passed through multiverses that he created.
and you bring up v2, we saw in v2, again lucifer mentioned him traveling across his father and his own multiverses
Originally posted by MrMindSure you do. You just can't. Instead, you bear down on single panels while ignoring the rest of the entire volumes of issues. Twist twitter posts in contravention of the KMC rules. Invent entire cosmologies while demanding others prove the negative. Not my first rodeo, pal.
look i dont have to prove shit
When you want to discuss Lucifer vol.2-3, let me know. Vol.2 first. Might as well go in chronological order. Like, when you want to discuss the Presence being killed twice in Lucifer vol.2, let me know. How you go on to utterly butcher that fact might illicit a sensible chuckle from me.
Originally posted by MrMindIt is really simple. Lucifer on-panel molded a single universe.
uh huhhere come the essence of the long winded non-sense. you want to ignore on panel proof
look, it's really simple. if it was shown lucifer created on panel a multiverse once or twice. it is enough.
But to you, Lucifer didn't just mold a universe, he molded an endless set of fully-functioning alternate universes each with their own layers/dimensions -- a feat of monumental power rarely seen in comics...
... in a completely unextraordinary scene, where what we actually see on-panel is Lucifer flying around in space near a single star down to primordial single Earth, flying past a tree, forming his Adam/Eve couple, dictating and informing them of their free will:
Somehow, Lucifer did this across all those countless alternate universes that would necessarily be involved if Lucifer did mold a multiverse... off-panel. And, yknow, when he split the Gate on Earth across God's creation to allow its denizens to choose his creation to live in, this scene actually occurred on countless alternate Earths leading to the countless alternate Earths in Lucifer's creation... and not just this one Earth that we see and deal with, for virtually the entire time until it's converged onto Elaine's creation at story's end.
I don't see him visiting every alternate universe version of Adam and Eve across an infinite multiverse. Do you? Oh, I see. It happened off-panel.
Originally posted by zopzop👆
A) You left out the scans where Upside Down Man and Trigon were also shown as the Great Darkness.B) If Lucifer is the Great Darkness how does the entire series 1 of Lucifer and the GEB first intro make sense.
GEB is the anti God. Lucifer and two other demons had to form a Triumvirate in Hell because they feared its approach. Lucifer and Michael are creations of God. If Lucifer is GEB, why would he need Michael's power to do anything? Why is Lucifer referred to as Michael's brother and God's creation if Lucifer is GEB?Square that circle.
And that scan of Elaine over Lucifer/Michael's creation proves my point. It's a single universe with spiritual sub dimensions.
Originally posted by ODGForgot about the Bowie reference. Vertigo Lucifer was famously modeled after Bowie just as Constantine was famously modeled after Sting.All that shows is a fallen angel was among a group cameo in the company of Upside Down Man and Trigon. Frankly, John Constantine has only ever met Lucifer once in Lucifer vol.3 #15. I'm thinking that's the First Fallen's form that was shown in Dark Crisis: The Deadly Green since Constantine actually has a much more storied history with him. But it's pointless to speculate.Neither Upside Down Man nor Trigon were the actual GEB. Suggesting that fallen angel was the GEB is fallacious. If anything, it's an aspect of the GEB. But Lucifer himself being an aspect of the GEB has not been proven yet and is utterly contradicted by both their on-panel histories.
Originally posted by MrMind
don't you get it deadpoolanything from dc that's totality/all encompassing/omniverse/multiverse/ is meant to be universe
a marvel universe means multiverse/realms/dimensions/omniverse
this is what essentially the argument comes down to
DC's coolest multiversal level being is the Cosmic Raptor (their version of the PF on steroids).
Originally posted by MrMindCrisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis clearly involved the DC multiverse. The stories make no sense unless they did. Vertigo’s Lucifer or Preacher don’t require a multiverse to be involved to explore their main themes or drive their plots forward. Just because God with a capital “G” was involved is irrelevant. After all, we saw what happened to the Presence twiceover in Lucifer vol.2, lol.
don't you get it deadpoolanything from dc that's totality/all encompassing/omniverse/multiverse/ is meant to be universe
a marvel universe means multiverse/realms/dimensions/omniverse
this is what essentially the argument comes down to
You can pretend this is just DC haterade but it’s really just the same rationale that leads the vast majority of posters to believe that Marvel stories like Infinity Gauntlet or Chaos War involved a single universe. And I spent waaay more time deconstructing the myth that the 616 IG was multiversal before ever deigning to discuss Vertigo Lucifer.
But I understand parading your flaccid strawman around to poison the well is all you’re left with. Can’t even bring yourself to discuss the plots and events of Lucifer vols.2-3. I mean, no dressing-down from me is ever going to match how much those comics anally molested your fairytale of multiversality.
this is what essentially your argument (or lack thereof) boils down to
whatever considered canon is interpret differently by readers
there is no specific gold standard in which such rules establishes, everything is under interpretation.
it's even funnier questioning by marvel fanboys who are oblivious on how many retcons beyonder has gotten
lucifer v3 and v2 are tied to v1 just fine. anyone who read the stories will understand this. in v3 the wild hunt was happened when young lucifer was still the ruler of hell.
a weaker young lucifer easily slayed the hunted god in v3, and killing it over and over again wiith hell fire
lucifer was shown to be far above the likes of spectre in spectre v3
lucifer mentioned the demons joining the great darkness in hell during the crisis on infinite earth, in early sandman series. early sandman was closely tied to dc main events during that era. it was obvious when gaiman created his cosmology it was under the dc umbrella
morpheus also said lucy is the most powerful being in dc sans presence.
the existence of overvoid was a key point of lucifer v1 plot
the pathway of overvoid that lucifer cut open, without writing the name of presence would destroy all creation when closing
we saw being from before creation from another multiverses in lucifer v1,
lucifer was able to use aleph much better than metron the new god, due to being in higher cosmic hierarchy.
the multiverse lucifer created has it's own realm for afterlife.
lucifer sees infinity as a localized phenomenon
we saw lucifer spllit his portal into infinite pieces into his each one of his realms in his multiverse, facing his father's creation (universal lucifer eh? lmfao)
Again, read what you post. He has "passed through multiverses." He doesn't say he has passed through multiverses that he created.
like this comment by odg. shows odg lack of understanding of the story. the multiverses v2 mentioned was clearly the 3 multiverses evolve around end of v1, which was presence's creation, lucifer's creation, and elaine's creation
and yes lucifer is geb's intepretation according to watters, which completely contradict to what was mentioned earlier, even lucifer himself stated before geb is not him.
but that's neither here nor there. contradiction is too common in comics
whether lucifer is great darkness or not, doesn't change the conclusion that he will wipe his ass with marvel weaklings like beyonder.
and to think there are people with audacity to claim universal lucifer, despite everything that's shown. is just top notch trolling
Originally posted by MrMindWhat an unextraordinary statement of plain fact. Yes, it is true that different interpretations exist. It's just that your interpretation is hypocritically laughable. I never said you don't have an argument. It's just a sh1tty one.
whatever considered canon is interpret differently by readersthere is no specific gold standard in which such rules establishes, everything is under interpretation.
Originally posted by MrMindYou kept clinging to how Lucifer as he was originally presented (in your opinion) in Lucifer vol. 1... whilst avoiding his subsequent stories. Because those subsequent stories
it's even funnier questioning by marvel fanboys who are oblivious on how many retcons beyonder has gotten
That's why I specifically brought up how Beyonder as he was originally presented in Secret Wars II without dealing with any subsequent stories. That entire line of discourse was designed to lead you back to your own glaring hypocrisy and throw that sort of clingy ignorant logic back in your face.
I advocate that you should take the character at their plain presentation within the four corners of the comic stories they are featured in. There is no need to exaggerate purple prose or magnify isolated panels or randomly cite unrelated comics to desperately twist universe-level characters into being multiverse-level characters. Not unless you have some immaturely warped agenda.
Yes. Subsequent stories have clearly defined the scope of power that Beyonder operates on. What you fail to grasp is that Lucifer was never an exception to this either.
Clearly, this went over your head. Happy New Year!
