Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Universe can mean everything, though. Marvel U, DCU....
A multiverse being defined as a series of infinite UNIVERSES. Isn't that what the What Ifs and Elseworlds are?
Originally posted by zopzop
But if it's never shown to be anything other than a single universe with all it's spiritual realms, astral realms, pocket dimensions, etc.. it's not a multiverse no?A multiverse being defined as a series of infinite UNIVERSES. Isn't that what the What Ifs and Elseworlds are?
But surely we don't need to be shown every minutiae?
I assume that Lois Lane is human, and that she poops. Comics have never depicted this (despite MrMind's incessant tweets and letters)....but they don't have to.
Originally posted by zopzop
[B Now you have to show me ON PANEL proof that it's a multiverse. I'll wait. Because I showed you on panel proof that it was nothing more than a single universe with side dimensions.
[/B]
does the scan i posted where lucifer said so himself it was a multiverse, not count?
i just showed you on panel proof. am i taking crazy pill here?
zop: i want on panel proof that it's a multiverse
mrmind shows on panel comic of said proof
zop: but i want on panel proof. show me that!
mrmind: but i just did!
wtf....im gonna go get a drink so i dont have a stroke
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But surely we don't need to be shown every minutiae?I assume that Lois Lane is human, and that she poops. Comics have never depicted this (despite MrMind's incessant tweets and letters)....but they don't have to.
until dc comics show lois lane's butthole opens up with turd coming out, as far as im concerned lois lane does not poop. neither do any of the female population
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But surely we don't need to be shown every minutiae?I assume that Lois Lane is human, and that she poops. Comics have never depicted this (despite MrMind's incessant tweets and letters)....but they don't have to.
Originally posted by MrMind
does the scan i posted where lucifer said so himself it was a multiverse, not count?i just showed you on panel proof. am i taking crazy pill here?
zop: i want on panel proof that it's a multiverse
mrmind shows on panel comic of said proof
zop: but i want on panel proof. show me that!
mrmind: but i just did!
wtf....im gonna go get a drink so i dont have a stroke
Now if there's on panel proof contradicting this, I'd love to see it.
Originally posted by zopzop
But when it's shown on panel to be a universe (sans alternate realities) it reinforces the single universe definition no? We saw Elaine flying over Lucifer/Michael's entire universe and she even described what she flew through.Now if there's on panel proof contradicting this, I'd love to see it.
But again-we don't need to be shown EVERYTHING. We've been told Lois Lanie is human, we don't need to see every single aspect of her being human to know this. And the absence of evidence isn't proof, tbh.
We're told Batman knows every martial art on Earth. I've never seen on panel evidence of him training in XYZ fist of the Mystical White Leopard Crane of whatever - but we take it as gospel that he knows every one We don't need to see 127 panels showing him training in a different martial art in each one.
Originally posted by MrMindAvoiding two entire volumes of the characters' appearances isn't a winning strategy, kid.
like i said, this is not worth my time until someone worth debating come along and start showing actual substance.
Originally posted by MrMindNegative proof fallacy.
marvel fans, for this discourse to continue first prove beyond realm is bigger than nilovervoid>dc omniverse> infinite multiverses made in sixth dimension>fifth dimension>dark multiverse>nil=beyond realm>third dimensional marvel multiverse=third dimensional dc multiverse
You haven't even proven that Michael was ever equated to the Monitor Realm, let alone the Overvoid.
Originally posted by MrMindSo what if nothing in Marvel exceeded the Beyond realm? Secret Wars II Beyonder was the entirety of the Beyond realm.
nothing in marvel is bigger than beyond realm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85This rebuttal is reductionist and not argued in good faith.
But again-we don't need to be shown EVERYTHING. We've been told Lois Lanie is human, we don't need to see every single aspect of her being human to know this. And the absence of evidence isn't proof, tbh.We're told Batman knows every martial art on Earth. I've never seen on panel evidence of him training in XYZ fist of the Mystical White Leopard Crane of whatever - but we take it as gospel that he knows every one We don't need to see 127 panels showing him training in a different martial art in each one.
A more appropriate analogy would be whether one could argue that (i) Lois is the love of Superman's life, which makes her (ii) the lynchpin to Superman and the DC Multiverse. The former isn't at issue. The latter is an exponentially far greater conclusion. Accordingly, it requires that much more evidence.
Michael being universal or multiversal is an exponential difference. Accordingly, it requires more proof than the use of loaded terms or random tweets. Precisely because of how exponentially apart that universe-busting vs. multiverse-busting is. It's a vaster difference than city-busting vs. planet-busting. It's a vaster difference than planet-busting vs. solar system-busting. It's a vaster difference than galaxy-busting vs. universe-busting.
Accordingly, it requires on-panel evidence that dispels any reasonable doubt. At the very least, it requires clear and convincing evidence to overcome the simple question: "If the feats/characters were not truly multiversal, would that break the story's plot or themes?"
If Crisis on Infinite Earths or Hickman's Secret Wars were not truly multiversal, those storylines completely break. They would make no sense. But if you read Our Worlds at War or Chaos War and limit them to universal relevance, the stories stand on their own merit.
So go ahead and read Lucifer vols.1-3. Do the story arcs completely break and become nonsensical if they were just universal in scope? No? Now your burden of evidence increases that much more to try and elevate their relevance to the exponentially far greater scope of truly multiversal.
Despite one or two uses of the term, "multiverse," if you want to convince other posters of that level -- a status that is exponentially greater than just universal -- it requires more than wordplay. And if that's all that posters keep fleeing towards to hiding behind, that just magnifies how weak their position is.
Originally posted by ODG
Avoiding two entire volumes of the characters' appearances isn't a winning strategy, kid. Negative proof fallacy.You haven't even proven that Michael was ever equated to the Monitor Realm, let alone the Overvoid. So what if nothing in Marvel exceeded the Beyond realm? Secret Wars II Beyonder was the entirety of the Beyond realm.
uhhhhh what? do you really wanna bring v3 into this? watters think lucifer is great darkness
we saw in dark crisis pariah drawing power from great darkness altering the dc omniverse and taking over multiverses. beyonder would be a literal gnat in comparison
and you bring up v2, we saw in v2, again lucifer mentioned him traveling across his father and his own multiverses
look i dont have to prove shit, ultimately you are just doing what marvel fanboys been doing for the last 15 years and try to imply michael/lucifer and the entire vertigo verse is non canon to dc. if that's your stance I will gladly no lube you on this topic.
vertigo-verse just like wildstorm are under the umbrella of dc cosmology, it's under the same god presence, and michael wields the entiretly of presence power, the power of dunamis demiurgos. that's the equivelant of someone in marvel wield the entirety of toaa power. scratch that it's actually way beyond that consider how tiny the marvel omniverse is compared to dc.
if michael wields the dunamis demiurgos the power to make and break entire creation, he is above the nil by default.
Originally posted by ODG
This rebuttal is reductionist and not argued in good faith.A more appropriate analogy would be whether one could argue that (i) Lois is the love of Superman's life, which makes her (ii) the lynchpin to Superman and the DC Multiverse. The former isn't at issue. The latter is an exponentially far greater conclusion. Accordingly, it requires that much more evidence.
Michael being universal or multiversal is an exponential difference. Accordingly, it requires more proof than the use of loaded terms or random tweets. Precisely because of how exponentially apart that universe-busting vs. multiverse-busting is. It's a vaster difference than city-busting vs. planet-busting. It's a vaster difference than planet-busting vs. solar system-busting. It's a vaster difference than galaxy-busting vs. universe-busting.
Accordingly, it requires on-panel evidence that dispels any reasonable doubt. At the very least, it requires clear and convincing evidence to overcome the simple question: "If the feats/characters were not truly multiversal, would that break the story's plot or themes?"
If Crisis on Infinite Earths or Hickman's Secret Wars were not truly multiversal, those storylines completely break. They would make no sense. But if you read Our Worlds at War or Chaos War and limit them to universal relevance, the stories stand on their own merit.
So go ahead and read Lucifer vols.1-3. Do the story arcs completely break and become nonsensical if they were just universal in scope? No? Now your burden of evidence increases that much more to try and elevate their relevance to the exponentially far greater scope of truly multiversal.
Despite one or two uses of the term, "multiverse," if you want to convince other posters of that level -- a status that is exponentially greater than just universal -- it requires more than wordplay. And if that's all that posters keep fleeing towards to hiding behind, that just magnifies how weak their position is.
Originally posted by zopzop
This should be easy then. Show me the other universes. Not astral realms, god realms, or hells. Show me Luciferverse 874, or Vertigoverse 1478. You can't.Also a writer's tweet 15 years after the story was published doesn't mean jack if its not shown on panel.
this is the best marvel boys can come up with.
it's the same shit all these years.
it's the equivalent of me saying. well how do you know marvel multiverse is infinite. it only documented a finite number of earths we saw earth 616, we saw earth 19999, we saw earth 813. but what about earth 78389578, or earth 835729872582?
oh you can't show me? then the marvel earth is not infintie
was presence's creation in lucifer and sandman the dc multiverse, yes or no?
if presence's creation is indeed dc. then it is a multiverse. because dc is a multiverse/omniverse. and if you don't agree with dc being a omniverse with infinite multiverses I'll gladly wipe the floor with you on that
Originally posted by ODGDespite one or two uses of the term, "multiverse," if you want to convince other posters of that level -- a status that is exponentially greater than just universal -- it requires more than wordplay.
uh huh
here come the essence of the long winded non-sense. you want to ignore on panel proof
look, it's really simple. if it was shown lucifer created on panel a multiverse once or twice. it is enough. it doesn't have to be repeated 5-10 times. comic book writers aren't autistic battleboard nerds that serve you story just for your battle threads.
we have on panel proof of lucifer creating multiverse and writer himself confirming it was indeed a all-encompassing multiverse on twitter. that's more than enough
and if he use the term universe the rest of the way in the stories it's fine because we know he means a multiverse when he phrase it like that. we are not idiots.
still not convinced? not our problem.
and no it's not wordplay. it's words conveying the meaning of the story.
Originally posted by MrMind
uhhhhh what? do you really wanna bring v3 into this? watters think lucifer is great darknesswe saw in dark crisis pariah drawing power from great darkness altering the dc omniverse and taking over multiverses. beyonder would be a literal gnat in comparison
and you bring up v2, we saw in v2, again lucifer mentioned him traveling across his father and his own multiverses
look i dont have to prove shit, ultimately you are just doing what marvel fanboys been doing for the last 15 years and try to imply michael/lucifer and the entire vertigo verse is non canon to dc. if that's your stance I will gladly no lube you on this topic.
vertigo-verse just like wildstorm are under the umbrella of dc cosmology, it's under the same god presence, and michael wields the entiretly of presence power, the power of dunamis demiurgos. that's the equivelant of someone in marvel wield the entirety of toaa power. scratch that it's actually way beyond that consider how tiny the marvel omniverse is compared to dc.
if michael wields the dunamis demiurgos the power to make and break entire creation, he is above the nil by default.
B) If Lucifer is the Great Darkness how does the entire series 1 of Lucifer and the GEB first intro make sense.
GEB is the anti God. Lucifer and two other demons had to form a Triumvirate in Hell because they feared its approach. Lucifer and Michael are creations of God. If Lucifer is GEB, why would he need Michael's power to do anything? Why is Lucifer referred to as Michael's brother and God's creation if Lucifer is GEB?
Square that circle.
And that scan of Elaine over Lucifer/Michael's creation proves my point. It's a single universe with spiritual sub dimensions.