Defenders vs Black Adam

Originally posted by h1a8
Writer's intent can not be debated in common sense scenarios.
If a writer doesn't show or imply something then it doesn't Exist . otherwise you are making shit up(which is trolling).

Yeah except you have Zero common sense and you are the only troll here.

You basically use "writer's intent" as a justification to believe in whatever you like. Because you have Zero debate skills.

Originally posted by h1a8
Flying speed isn't combat speed. How much distance can Surfer cover during the first microsecond starting from rest? It takes time to build speed (through acceleration). BA speed is instant.

He can zip around at ridiculous speed. That's relevant not matter how much you try to spin it. Especially for a guy whose always flying. It's not like it's in character for him to get into a slow punch up instead.

Originally posted by h1a8
The relative velocity of Torch to Surfer was small since they were moving in the same direction. If I am going to 1000mph and you are going to 1050mph then it's equivalent to you going only 50mph perceived by me. So a human has the perception speed to grab Torch in that scene.

Drilling through dirt and land isn't an amazing feat. Humans can drill miles into the Earth. BA can wreck that material and equipment that's used drill in the Earth. And we never see how Surfer does it or how long it takes him.

Troll arguments. Not even worth addressing.

Originally posted by h1a8
And you are using double standards. Asking us to ignore BA speed in feats in favor of the times he was hit.

I'm not at all. He has one scene where humans moved in slow motion to him. They weren't even complete statues. And that's it. If anything that's the outlier.

We also know he has the same power set as Shazam, whose also not fighting around invisible to everyone else.

So yeah try harder. I've given credit to people where they actually have given on screen feats to support their arguments, so again, don't accuse me of double standards just because you're terrible at this.

Originally posted by h1a8
Those are the rules dude. Lack of feats mean that the character does not get the special attribute in a forum fight.

What special attribute? The surfer doesn’t need any. It won’t be a physical battle. Surfer has to many ways of taking BA out without resorting to fisticuffs

Originally posted by tkitna
What special attribute? The surfer doesn’t need any. It won’t be a physical battle. Surfer has to many ways of taking BA out without resorting to fisticuffs

Well use feats then.
What ways will he take BA out.
And make sure you argue in character (to prevent the double standards

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah except you have Zero common sense and you are the only troll here.

You basically use "writer's intent" as a justification to believe in whatever you like. Because you have Zero debate skills.

He can zip around at ridiculous speed. That's relevant not matter how much you try to spin it. Especially for a guy whose always flying. It's not like it's in character for him to get into a slow punch up instead.

Troll arguments. Not even worth addressing.

I'm not at all. He has one scene where humans moved in slow motion to him. They weren't even complete statues. And that's it. If anything that's the outlier.

We also know he has the same power set as Shazam, whose also not fighting around invisible to everyone else.

So yeah try harder. I've given credit to people where they actually have given on screen feats to support their arguments, so again, don't accuse me of double standards just because you're terrible at this.

If two people have to debate writer's intent then one is trolling and the discussion should be discontinued. Writer's intent should never have to be debated when it is clear.

Prove that he can zip around at ridiculous speeds instantaneous from rest.Im not trying to spin anything.Its all about how much distance he can coverin the 1st microsecond.And can he react in a microsecond or faster.

So if two beings moving insanely fast in the same directio, where one is moving slightly faster than the other (10-50 Mph faster) then it takes superhuman reactions to be able to grab them while they are approaching?
And that's a troll rebuttal?

He statued Hawkman on multiple hits. He evaded and blocked far more attacks than actually being hit. He operated in that mode to catch the bullet and save the boy. He caught the first bullet ever shot at him. Are you suggesting that BA will not use speed in a forum fight?

And lmao at outlier. He did it multiple times in the movie (which is irrelevant as he only needs to do something once to prove that he has th3 capacity). And you are using nothing but outlier feats for Surfer (drilling holes, etc)

Originally posted by h1a8
Well I'll be damned. Not only are you arguing against writer's intent (the writer wants the audience to see the attack so that we know what's happening) but you just phucked up most of Thor's and Hulk's best feats.

Well the Hulk isn't bulletproof. Real aircraft bullets will go through him like tissue paper. Same with Thor.
And also, All those explosions happened far slower than real explosions (material protrude outward at speeds of faster than rifle bullets).
So Thor and Hulk can be killed by real bullets easily.

If a bullet is moving super slowly even when everyone around them is moving at regular time, then the writer's intent is to show a slow bullet. As in you have an abnormally slow bullet.

If a bullet is moving super slowly while everyone around them is moving slowly as well, then writer's intent is to show time moving slowly. As in it's a slow mo shot.

So no, I'm not arguing against writer's intent and have in no way invalidated Thor's or Hulk's feats. What I have done instead is to show that you don't understand have slow motion is used to depict writer's intent in these movies.

That actually explains a lot.

Originally posted by FrothByte
If a bullet is moving super slowly even when everyone around them is moving at regular time, then the writer's intent is to show a slow bullet. As in you have an abnormally slow bullet.

If a bullet is moving super slowly while everyone around them is moving slowly as well, then writer's intent is to show time moving slowly. As in it's a slow mo shot.

So no, I'm not arguing against writer's intent and have in no way invalidated Thor's or Hulk's feats. What I have done instead is to show that you don't understand have slow motion is used to depict writer's intent in these movies.

That actually explains a lot.

We have two reaction feats from Surfer, and that is it.

1. Him swatting missiles away:

2. Him turning around and catching Johnny by the throat:

That is it.

Problem with 1 is....we can easily turn things around on the Surfer crowd - you say that BA's lightning is slow? I say those missiles were slow. But even if they were fast, note how BA deals with missiles:

Being consistent and fair here, we assume missiles are fast. Except one guy is swatting them, and one guy is essentially teleporting to them (note how both clips are not slowed down/sped up - Surfer can still be tracked by our eyes, but BA can't.

Problem with 2 is myriad.

A: no telling how fast they are going.
B: He turns around - holds his arm out - and Johnny rams himself into his outstretched hand. If I did that to an 80mph baseball, no one is saying my hands move at 80mph.
C:Relativity, as h1 says. If I am running a marathon, and there is someone hot on my heels (and I know that they are) - me simply turning around and clotheslining them when they least expect it says nothing about our speed, only that my pursuer has poor reflexes. At best, it says Surfer outreacted human-level Johnny.

We have already shown Hawkman reacting to lightning - lightning that is fast, as it is travelling at a good speed even when everything is in slow-mo.

Let's add Atom Smasher in.

Here, he is fast enough to move those giant hands to protect Cyclone from an AoE explosion and lightning:

So as per feats, he is plenty fast. Faster than Surfer, who...swatted a missile whilst still being seen by us mere humans, and who...essentially clotheslined a bullrushing Johnny.

BA uppercutted him and OHKOed him:

Originally posted by h1a8
Well use feats then.
What ways will he take BA out.
And make sure you argue in character (to prevent the double standards

Matter and molecular warping, phasing, or just plain power output that destroyed a being roughly 20 times the size of the earth.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We have two reaction feats from Surfer, and that is it.

1. Him swatting missiles away:

2. Him turning around and catching Johnny by the throat:

That is it.

Problem with 1 is....we can easily turn things around on the Surfer crowd - you say that BA's lightning is slow? I say those missiles were slow. But even if they were fast, note how BA deals with missiles:

Being consistent and fair here, we assume missiles are fast. Except one guy is swatting them, and one guy is essentially teleporting to them (note how both clips are not slowed down/sped up - Surfer can still be tracked by our eyes, but BA can't.

Problem with 2 is myriad.

A: no telling how fast they are going.
B: He turns around - holds his arm out - and Johnny rams himself into his outstretched hand. If I did that to an 80mph baseball, no one is saying my hands move at 80mph.
C:Relativity, as h1 says. If I am running a marathon, and there is someone hot on my heels (and I know that they are) - me simply turning around and clotheslining them when they least expect it says nothing about our speed, only that my pursuer has poor reflexes. At best, it says Surfer outreacted human-level Johnny.

We have already shown Hawkman reacting to lightning - lightning that is fast, as it is travelling at a good speed even when everything is in slow-mo.

Let's add Atom Smasher in.

Here, he is fast enough to move those giant hands to protect Cyclone from an AoE explosion and lightning:

So as per feats, he is plenty fast. Faster than Surfer, who...swatted a missile whilst still being seen by us mere humans, and who...essentially clotheslined a bullrushing Johnny.

BA uppercutted him and OHKOed him:

Problem with your argument is that I never claimed Surfer was as fast as BA. I completely agree that BA is faster. What I do think is that Surfer is definitely not slower than Hawkman or Dr. Fate or Atom Smasher, all of whom were able to land hits on BA (some of then landing multiple hits) despite being slower.

So no, I'm not saying Surfer is faster than BA. I'm saying he can still land hits despite being slower, same way every superhuman BA fought was able to land hits on him despite being slower.

Because right now you're trying to argue that Hawkman, Dr. Fate and even Atom Smasher all have some kind of superspeed. Is that really a hill you're willing to die on?

Based on the feats shown in their respective movies, ignoring their comic counterparts, yes, they are faster.

The alternative is that they only reacted as they did, because plot protected them - we can't have the main character kill other heroes, after all.

The issue with Surfer is that he lacks feats because he had no real threats (well until Reed came around with his brain). Doom tried to be a tough guy around him, and Surfer shrugged him off like a child. I believe if he took BA as a true threat than all hell would break loose and it wouldn't end well for BA.

Originally posted by tkitna
The issue with Surfer is that he lacks feats because he had no real threats (well until Reed came around with his brain). Doom tried to be a tough guy around him, and Surfer shrugged him off like a child. I believe if he took BA as a true threat than all hell would break loose and it wouldn't end well for BA.

Agreed on not having real threats.

If we viewed Movie Surfer through the lens of the comics, then yeah we can project all manner of influenced views onto Movie Surfer.

But if I treated him like a completely separate and different character, with no baggage attached, he's not that impressive. It's precisely why the film was so bad - it had so much potential, agreed, but it wasn't shown.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Agreed on not having real threats.

If we viewed Movie Surfer through the lens of the comics, then yeah we can project all manner of influenced views onto Movie Surfer.

But if I treated him like a completely separate and different character, with no baggage attached, he's not that impressive. It's precisely why the film was so bad - it had so much potential, agreed, but it wasn't shown.

Fair. I agree with you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Based on the feats shown in their respective movies, ignoring their comic counterparts, yes, they are faster.

The alternative is that they only reacted as they did, because plot protected them - we can't have the main character kill other heroes, after all.

See, I disagree. The gifs you posted to support the DC guys moving faster is Hawkman blocking lightning with his shield and Atom Smasher closing his hands to cover someone else from an explosion.

While those are impressive, they were also very small movements. Raising a shield to block lightning. Closing your hands.

In comparison, the gif you posted of Surfer showed him maneuvering around missiles and slapping them away. Those are bigger and far more complicated movements. Even turning around and catching a charging Human Torch by the throat, that's a lot harder than simply raising a shield to block or closing your hands.

So no, I disagree that the feats show the DC team being faster. I'm not even going so far to claim that Surfer is faster (even though a good argument can be made that he is), I'm just settling for the DC team not having feats to show they're faster than Surfer.

He's closing his hands to block lightning and explosions (the lightning is blue). That's what you're missing. And small movements? His hands are literally the size of a human body, lol. He's literally moving body lengths.

If you can raise your hands to block lightning, or raise your arms to make a shield and then block lightning, that's pretty fast. That's what you're missing - Hawkman raised his arm, THEN formed a shield, THEN blocked the lightning.

He clotheslined a bullrushing Torch. Nothing more. We can't say anything about their speeds at that point.

OTOH, sans any explanation or context, we must assume lightning is, well, lightning.

And it's fast. Far faster than missiles.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's precisely why the film was so bad - it had so much potential, agreed, but it wasn't shown.

I personally think Surfer was the highlight of the film and it was everything else that made it bad.

For a first big screen depiction of Surfer I thought he (at least) was decent.

Originally posted by FrothByte
See, I disagree. The gifs you posted to support the DC guys moving faster is Hawkman blocking lightning with his shield and Atom Smasher closing his hands to cover someone else from an explosion.

While those are impressive, they were also very small movements. Raising a shield to block lightning. Closing your hands.

In comparison, the gif you posted of Surfer showed him maneuvering around missiles and slapping them away. Those are bigger and far more complicated movements. Even turning around and catching a charging Human Torch by the throat, that's a lot harder than simply raising a shield to block or closing your hands.

So no, I disagree that the feats show the DC team being faster. I'm not even going so far to claim that Surfer is faster (even though a good argument can be made that he is), I'm just settling for the DC team not having feats to show they're faster than Surfer.

Why be lazy? If you do the math then you would clearly see what Hawkman and such did was magnitudes above what Surfer did. Just calculate the time it takes for lightning to travel a certain distance. Then calculate the distance Hawkman, etc moved in that same time frame. Then perform the correct operations to get speed, etc.

The Torch feat (grabbing him by the neck) can be EASILY done by human level reactions and hand speed. They were both going in the same direction. That's like a car chasing you from behind. The relative velocity between both was small (way smaller than the speed they were traveling).

Manuevering around is not a speed feat, the same as running around isn't.
Slapping a missile is a better speed feat (but still not as impressive as lightning) .
Surfer can move at the actual visual speed he was shown and still achieve the same result.

Originally posted by tkitna
Matter and molecular warping, phasing, or just plain power output that destroyed a being roughly 20 times the size of the earth.

Show me Surfer using matter and molecular warping in a fight where he purposely warps the matter of who he is fighting in which they are defeated.

So you argue against outliers but are using one yourself. This is proof that you are bias (change the rules as you go).

With that said, the feat is unusable to prove power output. You have no idea what Surfer actually did. He could have started a chain reaction in the cloud.
Here is what I mean:

https://youtube.com/shorts/OeuMxlCmxZE?si=kLQrC_U2oJmFBLHa

And
https://youtu.be/S0cqcFg0_V0?si=U_4WJTsE7EsZ-YU_

Originally posted by h1a8
Why be lazy? If you do the math then you would clearly see what Hawkman and such did was magnitudes above what Surfer did. Just calculate the time it takes for lightning to travel a certain distance. Then calculate the distance Hawkman, etc moved in that same time frame. Then perform the correct operations to get speed, etc.

The Torch feat (grabbing him by the neck) can be EASILY done by human level reactions and hand speed. They were both going in the same direction. That's like a car chasing you from behind. The relative velocity between both was small (way smaller than the speed they were traveling).

Manuevering around is not a speed feat, the same as running around isn't.
Slapping a missile is a better speed feat (but still not as impressive as lightning) .
Surfer can move at the actual visual speed he was shown and still achieve the same result.

So you're saying dodging around incoming missiles (with your whole body) somehow requires less speed than lifting up your shield to block lightning?

Originally posted by FrothByte
So you're saying dodging around incoming missiles (with your whole body) somehow requires less speed than lifting up your shield to block lightning?

Note: FIM-92 Stinger missiles have a maximum speed of Mach 2.2 (2475 ft/s)

Actually I'm generous let's assume Surfer was moving as fast as the missiles (which is reasonable from the scene).

How fast is lightning? How fast one must be to cover X distance in the time it takes lightning to cover Y distance?

Lastly, we assume Surfer can reach such speeds instantly when in reality he has to spend time accelerating to those speeds.

Originally posted by h1a8
It takes less than bullet speed to evade missiles that come at you from about a mile away. Do the math?

Note: FIM-92 Stinger missiles have a maximum speed of Mach 2.2 (2475 ft/s)

Actually I'm generous let's assume Surfer was moving as fast as the missiles (which is reasonable from the scene).

How fast is lightning? How fast one must be to cover X distance in the time it takes lightning to cover Y distance?

Lastly, we assume Surfer can reach such speeds instantly when in reality he has to spend time accelerating to those speeds.

Except Surfer didn't evade them from a mile away. He was evading them from meters away.