Defenders vs Black Adam

Originally posted by FrothByte
I can tell you that Hawkman shows no indication of using superspeed when he lifted his arm and blocked that lightning with his shield. There's no slow-motion effects, nor sped up shots. Nothing in that shot indicates he's moving faster that regular speed. So it doesn't really matter how fast that lightning is moving because our main argument is not about that lightning. It's about whether or not Hawkman showcases superspeed... which he does not.

Using real-world numbers to justify the lightning's speed won't apply here because that lightning bolt (technically we don't really have any proof that it's lightning at all) is obviously moving a lot slower than real lightning due to us being able to see it move through the air at such close distances.

So if you really want to insist he has some form of super speed or super reflexes, onus is on you to prove how fast that lightning was moving. I'm simply going by what was shown on screen, and based on what was shown there's no indication that he's moving at super speed.

You missed the gif where he's using his wings to block against lightning, my guy. Large wings. Slow mo. Speed.

But sure. There's no indication that the missiles Surfer swatted were fast - it wasn't sped up, no slow mo, nothing.

Good trap 👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
[B]Here are his wings moving faster than Isis (who is human) and with lightning moving (so super fast).

And that's some big ass wings, too. /B]

Quoted and snipped.

My opinion (which means nothing) is that Hawkman did showcase some instances of superspeed. When BA was blitzing him in the bedroom, house, or whatever, he managed to even connect with a punch or two in the exchange. Pretty good speed feat.

He is nowhere as fast as BA, but he has his moments. Not butting in on you two's debate. Just how I perceived it.

Oh yeah. I mean, in the comics he fights BA, so there's precedence, but.....

If I made a thread with characters called Black Rock, Big Al, Magic Bond and Angry Bird, and based arguments purely on what was shown in the film, people would have no trouble accepting them against the Silver Skier.

It's because we have the baggage of their comic counterparts in our head, which colours our viewpoint. Divorced of that, and the outcome would be very different in this thread.

Originally posted by tkitna
My opinion (which means nothing) is that Hawkman did showcase some instances of superspeed. When BA was blitzing him in the bedroom, house, or whatever, he managed to even connect with a punch or two in the exchange. Pretty good speed feat.

He is nowhere as fast as BA, but he has his moments. Not butting in on you two's debate. Just how I perceived it.

I don't consider that superspeed though. Professional fighters in real life are capable of some pretty fast punches, and movie action characters are capable of even faster hits. Examples like Daredevil dodging bullets or Luddendorf landing multiple hits against Wonder Woman or Thor blocking laser blasts.

Those don't necessarily translate to them having super speed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Quoted and snipped.

What makes you think the human there is actually in motion rather than just standing stupefied? Trained fighters do actually move faster than non-trained people, and someone like Pacquiao can knock out your average joe before the average joe can even react. That doesn't mean that Pacquiao has super speed.

Originally posted by FrothByte
What makes you think the human there is actually in motion rather than just standing stupefied? Trained fighters do actually move faster than non-trained people, and someone like Pacquiao can knock out your average joe before the average joe can even react. That doesn't mean that Pacquiao has super speed.

There are levels to speed.
The larger the gap then the more improbable it is to react or land an attack against the faster one.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Thor and Hulk withstood punishment far more than simple bullets can dish out. In comparison, Hawkman and Surfer both didn't move with any indication that they had superspeed. So in the end what you have is a guy with superspeed (BA) who still gets hit repeatedly by beings without superspeed (Hawkman, Dr. Fate, Atom Smasher).

So we end up in square one which you still don't have an argument to counter with.

Make sure you read this entire post before responding. Not only do I defeat your argument (in which you can rebut) but I accept your argument in the end to show you that it still loses.

Here we go:
See how you change your argument when are losing?
First it was Surfer is fast because of the missiles and he move body lengths etc. Now the missiles are slow and so is Surfer. Lmao.
Just admit you are bias here.

Like DS said. Either those guys are fast or BA was hit only because the script demanded it. Either way we don't have the problem of perception speed being written out of the script in a forum fight.

And lastly. Your argument still loses if we accept it. In other words,
Just because he was hit doesn't mean Surfer can hit him.
BA can ko Surfer before Surfer can hit him because Surfer has no durability feats to prove that he can withstand attacks from BA.
And
Just because Surfer tags BA doesn't mean that BA will lose.
Surfer has no feats of attack that shows he can even harm BA let alone put him down.

Originally posted by h1a8

BA can ko Surfer before Surfer can hit him because Surfer has no durability feats to prove that he can withstand attacks from BA.

Isn't this contradictory though? How do we know BA can even affect him with a physical punch? Surfer could be so durable that BA breaks his hand when trying to punch him. He does fly at immense speeds in the vacuum of space. My point is that you can't automatically give character A a win when character B has no examples to go by. You have to go by other measures.

Just because Surfer tags BA doesn't mean that BA will lose.

And vice versa

Surfer has no feats of attack that shows he can even harm BA let alone put him down.

You are ignoring all of his feats with this statement.

Originally posted by tkitna
Isn't this contradictory though? How do we know BA can even affect him with a physical punch? Surfer could be so durable that BA breaks his hand when trying to punch him. He does fly at immense speeds in the vacuum of space. My point is that you can't automatically give character A a win when character B has no examples to go by. You have to go by other measures.

And vice versa

You are ignoring all of his feats with this statement.

These are fictional characters. They don't exist. It's no such thing as Surfer COULD be very durable. That's why we use feats to determine level of special attributes (those are the rules).
Surfer durability in a forum is shit because he has no good durability feats.
Flying fast in a vacuum does not mean anything.

I didn't ignore his feats. I addressed them.
Destroying trucks isn't enough to prove one can even bother BA.
That's like saying that tearing up a sheet of paper means that I can do the same to a steel plate.

Galactus cloud feat is inconclusive. We don't know what Surfer did. He could have started a runaway chain reaction (i posted videos to what I am talking about) that only works Because of some weakness exploitation in the cloud being.

https://youtube.com/shorts/OeuMxlCmxZE?si=kLQrC_U2oJmFBLHa
And

https://youtu.be/S0cqcFg0_V0?si=U_4WJTsE7EsZ-YU_

Originally posted by h1a8
These are fictional characters. They don't exist. It's no such thing as Surfer COULD be very durable. That's why we use feats to determine level of special attributes (those are the rules).
Surfer durability in a forum is shit because he has no good durability feats.
Flying fast in a vacuum does not mean anything.

I didn't ignore his feats. I addressed them.
Destroying trucks isn't enough to prove one can even bother BA.
That's like saying that tearing up a sheet of paper means that I can do the same to a steel plate.

Galactus cloud feat is inconclusive. We don't know what Surfer did. He could have started a runaway chain reaction (i posted videos to what I am talking about) that only works Because of some weakness exploitation in the cloud being.

https://youtube.com/shorts/OeuMxlCmxZE?si=kLQrC_U2oJmFBLHa
And

https://youtu.be/S0cqcFg0_V0?si=U_4WJTsE7EsZ-YU_

The Surfer had no physical encounters to base anything on but he was durable enough to survive a shockwave many times the size of the planet. Durability to take a punch from BA is apparent. Don't know why you can't see that.

Not even bothering BA with his power output is laughable. He destroyed a being roughly 20 times the size of the earth that was in the midst of tearing the planet apart while BA struggled enough with Hawkman and Sabbac.

I just can't see BA winning against Surfer in any conceivable manner. Surfer is just on a much larger scale than any flying brick.

Originally posted by tkitna
The Surfer had no physical encounters to base anything on but he was durable enough to survive a shockwave many times the size of the planet. Durability to take a punch from BA is apparent. Don't know why you can't see that.

Not even bothering BA with his power output is laughable. He destroyed a being roughly 20 times the size of the earth that was in the midst of tearing the planet apart while BA struggled enough with Hawkman and Sabbac.

Now you are trolling. I addressed this twice. You ignored both times. Ignoring evidence is trolling.

I just can't see BA winning against Surfer in any conceivable manner. Surfer is just on a much larger scale than any flying brick.

With no feats? You are the latest greatest troll

Originally posted by h1a8
That's not a feat. Said Shockwave (if any) didn't even do anything to the Earth.
[B]

Now you are trolling. I addressed this twice. You ignored both times. Ignoring evidence is trolling.

With no feats? You are the latest greatest troll

If it wasn't a feat than Surfer wouldn't have been affected at all and how do you know it didn't cause any damage to the earth? Just because the area that the FF4 was in wasn't affected? Did the movie show the rest of the planet?

Being called a troll by the biggest troll on this board for years is rich. You think everybody is a troll when they don't agree with the stuff you make up when you don't understand something. Your biggest problem is you have no common sense. Everything has to be spelled out for you in black and white.

Originally posted by tkitna
If it wasn't a feat than Surfer wouldn't have been affected at all and how do you know it didn't cause any damage to the earth? Just because the area that the FF4 was in wasn't affected? Did the movie show the rest of the planet?

Being called a troll by the biggest troll on this board for years is rich. You think everybody is a troll when they don't agree with the stuff you make up when you don't understand something. Your biggest problem is you have no common sense. Everything has to be spelled out for you in black and white.

You are giving Surfer special attributes without feats to back it up. That's trolling.
You are ignoring my rebuttal to your argument.
That's trolling.

This is fiction. This stuff never happened. The only thing that exists is what the writer reveals to us.
Since the Earth wasnt shown to be damaged then there is no proof to how strong the Shockwave (if any) was. Surfer could have given nearly all his life energy to achieve the feat as to the reason he was out for the count. We don't know anything concrete. Therefore it can't be used as evidence towards anything concrete.

Lastly, you act as if Surfer is just going to bust out and try the Cloud feat on BA and kill himself and his teammates (which he would believe).

This isn't Surfer from the comic. You have to treat this character like a random character from a random movie.

Originally posted by h1a8

Here we go:
See how you change your argument when are losing?
First it was Surfer is fast because of the missiles and he move body lengths etc. Now the missiles are slow and so is Surfer. Lmao.
Just admit you are bias here.

Actually that was never my argument. I never claimed Silver Surfer has super speed. If you can't even read and understand the context of my argument, then don't bother replying.

Once you've actually understood my argument, then I'll respond to you.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Actually that was never my argument. I never claimed Silver Surfer has super speed. If you can't even read and understand the context of my argument, then don't bother replying.

Once you've actually understood my argument, then I'll respond to you.

Well why the argument about the missile feat showing Surfer not slower than Hawkman?

Anyway let's forget that. Let's go with your argument. Let's assume Hawkman has no superspeed (reaction and hand movement speed).

Although BA dodged or blocked the vast majority of attacks (he only got tagged by a slim few) then why do you think he got tagged?

1. He was written without his perception speed in those scenes for the sake of the plot.
Or
2. Hawkman can sometimes move faster than what BA can react to (Hawkman's speed gets within the range of BA's reaction speed)?
Or
3. BA got hit on purpose (This requires proof since the negative of this will always be true without proof).
Or
4. Another reason (state the reason)

Originally posted by FrothByte
What makes you think the human there is actually in motion rather than just standing stupefied? Trained fighters do actually move faster than non-trained people, and someone like Pacquiao can knock out your average joe before the average joe can even react. That doesn't mean that Pacquiao has super speed.

Originally posted by FrothByte
What makes you think the human there is actually in motion rather than just standing stupefied? Trained fighters do actually move faster than non-trained people, and someone like Pacquiao can knock out your average joe before the average joe can even react. That doesn't mean that Pacquiao has super speed.

Missed this.

My point is not with Isis. My point is with the explosion shockwaves and the lightning, which is in slow mo yet moving - and Hawkman still managed to move his giant wings to shield her.

So this means Hawkman has some degree of superspeed, being able to react to lightning.

Which means him tagging BA isn't a knock on BA. And BA tagging him is a great feat for BA.

Meanwhile, Surfer has nothing of the sort, which means ... Hawkman tagging BA can't be used as proof that Surfer can do the same. Hawkman reacts to lightning, Surfer......travels through space?

Surfer would need to move beyond the speed of light to ever reach Earth at all.

Originally posted by Thinkerer
Surfer would need to move beyond the speed of light to ever reach Earth at all.

You assume he doesn't use hyperspace etc.