Originally posted by FrothByteThe rest of my post ignores that (I'll be generous...). You completely ignored it. Why?
Except Surfer didn't evade them from a mile away. He was evading them from meters away.
If Surfer was moving at their speed (which is more than fair since it takes less speed to evade something from a distance than the actual attack speed) then he is still MAGNITUDES slower.
Simply do the math.
Pretend Hawkman was able to move a foot in the time lightning moves 30ft
Then how fast is he?
Doesn't matter because lightning is at least 2 orders of magnitudes faster than those missiles (more than 100x faster).
Lastly, Surfer can't reach those speeds instantly. He has to spend time (even if small) increasing his speed. That means he will be nearly a statue during the 1st microsecond.
Originally posted by h1a8
Show me Surfer using matter and molecular warping in a fight where he purposely warps the matter of who he is fighting in which they are defeated.So you argue against outliers but are using one yourself. This is proof that you are bias (change the rules as you go).
With that said, the feat is unusable to prove power output. You have no idea what Surfer actually did. He could have started a chain reaction in the cloud.
Here is what I mean:
Did you not watch the movie? When he beat the Torch, was there not power passing going on afterwards. The surfer messed up his biological makeup. He also brought Sue back to life. If he can do that, why couldn't he just reverse the process? Your reaching as usual.
I'm biased because I don't think a flying brick with nothing more than punching ability and speed can take down a character with that much versatility and power output.
The galactus feat is viable. He was a cosmic being that was literally 20 times the size of the planet and was draining the life out of it. Your the only one dismissing it (shocking). Again, what could BA possibly do to defeat Galactus? Answer - nothing.
Originally posted by h1a8
It takes less than bullet speed to evade missiles that come at you from about a mile away. Do the math?Note: FIM-92 Stinger missiles have a maximum speed of Mach 2.2 (2475 ft/s)
Actually I'm generous let's assume Surfer was moving as fast as the missiles (which is reasonable from the scene).
How fast is lightning? How fast one must be to cover X distance in the time it takes lightning to cover Y distance?
Lastly, we assume Surfer can reach such speeds instantly when in reality he has to spend time accelerating to those speeds.
Here is where i'm struggling with this whole debate. Why is speed even being discussed? BA is faster than Surfer with reaction times on screen. Nobody should be debating that. The real debate is whether it matters. I surely don't think it does. In order for speed to be a factor, BA would have to one shot Surfer and I don't think thats possible.
Originally posted by tkitna
Here is where i'm struggling with this whole debate. Why is speed even being discussed? BA is faster than Surfer with reaction times on screen. Nobody should be debating that. The real debate is whether it matters. I surely don't think it does. In order for speed to be a factor, BA would have to one shot Surfer and I don't think thats possible.
Why does he have to one shot Surfer? Why can't he hit Surfer a few times to ko him? Surfer definitely can't one-shot BA.
Surfer has no great power output feats that shows he can put BA down (assuming BA sits there and let Surfer attack him for a full minute).
Surfer has no great durability feats to show he can take more than a few serious strikes from BA.
Originally posted by h1a8
Why does he have to one shot Surfer? Why can't he hit Surfer a few times to ko him? Surfer definitely can't one-shot BA.Surfer has no great power output feats that shows he can put BA down (assuming BA sits there and let Surfer attack him for a full minute).
Surfer has no great durability feats to show he can take more than a few serious strikes from BA.
You are honestly hopeless. Again, I have no idea why we continue to engage you, but alas, let me answer your questions.
BA would need to practically one shot Surfer before he could form a thought or BA would be unable to hit him again due to phasing or mounting offense. Also, Surfer can definitely one shot BA. Take this scene with his confrontation with Doom. When Surfer returns a blast, notice closely what happens to Doom before he reforms to be imprisoned. That'll do it. I'm sure he has many other ways too.
Surfer has no great power output feats? See, this is what i'm talking about. You are so dense it is frustrating. Remember the scene where BA was killing the troops using lightning and his superspeed? Surfer has a similar scene where it took nothing more than a wave of his hand. Surfer also destroyed a cosmic being numerous times the size of the earth and survived a shockwave that was several times the size of the planet.
He has the power output and durability in spades. I see zero chances of BA beating him.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And Hawkman was blocking lightning from meters away too.....
Correct. The difference being that it's a lot easier to simply lift your arm and block with a shield, compared to having to dodge multiple missiles and slap one away.
And even then, I'm not even claiming that Surfer is faster than Hawkman. I'm just saying that Hawkman doesn't have feats to show he's faster than Surfer.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Correct. The difference being that it's a lot easier to simply lift your arm and block with a shield, compared to having to dodge multiple missiles and slap one away.And even then, I'm not even claiming that Surfer is faster than Hawkman. I'm just saying that Hawkman doesn't have feats to show he's faster than Surfer.
Wut.
Lightning is way way WAY faster than a missile. Lightning travels at 270,000mph.
A Patriot is like 3500mph. Lightning is nearly 100x faster, my guy.
And rewatch the gif. He raises his arm, BUILDS A SHIELD, THEN BLOCKS.
You really cannot compare the two, at all.
Originally posted by tkitna
You are honestly hopeless. Again, I have no idea why we continue to engage you, but alas, let me answer your questions.BA would need to practically one shot Surfer before he could form a thought or BA would be unable to hit him again due to phasing or mounting offense. Also, Surfer can definitely one shot BA. Take this scene with his confrontation with Doom. When Surfer returns a blast, notice closely what happens to Doom before he reforms to be imprisoned. That'll do it. I'm sure he has many other ways too.
Surfer has no great power output feats? See, this is what i'm talking about. You are so dense it is frustrating. Remember the scene where BA was killing the troops using lightning and his superspeed? Surfer has a similar scene where it took nothing more than a wave of his hand. Surfer also destroyed a cosmic being numerous times the size of the earth and survived a shockwave that was several times the size of the planet.
He has the power output and durability in spades. I see zero chances of BA beating him.
Yeah that's not the best showing to use, lol.
Doom hits with, you guessed it, electricity. He hit Surfer hard enough to make him feel it. No damage, of course, I am not saying he damages Surfer - I am saying he hits him hard enough to affect Surfer.
How powerful are Doom's electricity blasts compared to BA's? BA was casually vapourising cars and soldiers, whilst Doom (using humans as the yardstick) was....putting holes in their stomachs and knocking them out, not atomising them.
That video has convinced me even more now that BA wins here, especially now we take his electricity into account. If Doom, with his little sparkshow, can affect Surfer, BA would destroy him. Like if a teenager punched me, vs a full grown man.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wut.Lightning is way way WAY faster than a missile. Lightning travels at 270,000mph.
A Patriot is like 3500mph. Lightning is nearly 100x faster, my guy.
And rewatch the gif. He raises his arm, BUILDS A SHIELD, THEN BLOCKS.You really cannot compare the two, at all.
Regular lightning, yes. But regular lightning shot at such close distances should have been instantaneous. The fact that we could see the lightning move in the air proves that it was nowhere close to moving as fast as regular lightning.
BA's lightning is obviously nowhere near as fast as you make it out to be and trying to sell Hawkman, Dr. Fate and Atom Smasher as some sort of speedsters is just silly.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah that's not the best showing to use, lol.Doom hits with, you guessed it, electricity. He hit Surfer hard enough to make him feel it. No damage, of course, I am not saying he damages Surfer - I am saying he hits him hard enough to affect Surfer.
How powerful are Doom's electricity blasts compared to BA's? BA was casually vapourising cars and soldiers, whilst Doom (using humans as the yardstick) was....putting holes in their stomachs and knocking them out, not atomising them.
That video has convinced me even more now that BA wins here, especially now we take his electricity into account. If Doom, with his little sparkshow, can affect Surfer, BA would destroy him. Like if a teenager punched me, vs a full grown man.
Are you serious? Doom sucker punched him with the blast. Yes Surfer felt it. Was he hurt? More annoyed i'd say. I doubt BA's lightning would have any worse affects.
Did you pay any attention as to what happened to Doom afterwards? He's lucky Surfer wasn't trying to kill him and he still got vaporized for a brief moment until he reformed inside the snowbank or whatever the shelter was.
One other thing, did you see the results of Dooms blasts after he was on the board. General Hagar wasn't doing so well afterwards. The power cosmic is on another level here.
Originally posted by tkitna
You are honestly hopeless. Again, I have no idea why we continue to engage you, but alas, let me answer your questions.BA would need to practically one shot Surfer before he could form a thought or BA would be unable to hit him again due to phasing or mounting offense. Also, Surfer can definitely one shot BA. Take this scene with his confrontation with Doom. When Surfer returns a blast, notice closely what happens to Doom before he reforms to be imprisoned. That'll do it. I'm sure he has many other ways too.
Surfer has no great power output feats? See, this is what i'm talking about. You are so dense it is frustrating. Remember the scene where BA was killing the troops using lightning and his superspeed? Surfer has a similar scene where it took nothing more than a wave of his hand. Surfer also destroyed a cosmic being numerous times the size of the earth and survived a shockwave that was several times the size of the planet.
He has the power output and durability in spades. I see zero chances of BA beating him.
Doom was actually healed. So good job showing that Surfer will not only not injure BA but actually possibly heal him (BA also has a regenerative ability).
And even if Surfer actually took Doom out (he didn't) then you are not allowed to use a no limits fallacy. You have to prove that Surfer can affect someone of BA durability and magically consistency (magic restores his being)
Surfer clapped his hands hard (why lie about a wave of his hands?) and sent a blast of energy towards the troops that damaged the vehicles. That feat is not good enough to show Surfer can even hurt BA.
Surfer destroyed a cloud being with no durability showings with an unknown means. Did you see the domino videos I posted? Surfer could have created a runaway chain reaction to achieve the feat and in which is only applicable to the cloud being (a weakness).
Originally posted by FrothByte
Regular lightning, yes. But regular lightning shot at such close distances should have been instantaneous. The fact that we could see the lightning move in the air proves that it was nowhere close to moving as fast as regular lightning.BA's lightning is obviously nowhere near as fast as you make it out to be and trying to sell Hawkman, Dr. Fate and Atom Smasher as some sort of speedsters is just silly.
Well those missiles look slow as hell.
As well as the bullets that hit Hulk.
As well as all the explosions Thor was in.
So Hulk is weak to real bullets and Thor is weak to both bullets and real explosions.
Originally posted by h1a8
Well those missiles look slow as hell.
As well as the bullets that hit Hulk.
As well as all the explosions Thor was in.So Hulk is weak to real bullets and Thor is weak to both bullets and real explosions.
Thor and Hulk withstood punishment far more than simple bullets can dish out. In comparison, Hawkman and Surfer both didn't move with any indication that they had superspeed. So in the end what you have is a guy with superspeed (BA) who still gets hit repeatedly by beings without superspeed (Hawkman, Dr. Fate, Atom Smasher).
So we end up in square one which you still don't have an argument to counter with.
Originally posted by h1a8
Doom was actually healed. So good job showing that Surfer will not only not injure BA but actually possibly heal him (BA also has a regenerative ability).And even if Surfer actually took Doom out (he didn't) then you are not allowed to use a no limits fallacy. You have to prove that Surfer can affect someone of BA durability and magically consistency (magic restores his being)
Surfer clapped his hands hard (why lie about a wave of his hands?) and sent a blast of energy towards the troops that damaged the vehicles. That feat is not good enough to show Surfer can even hurt BA.
Surfer destroyed a cloud being with no durability showings with an unknown means. Did you see the domino videos I posted? Surfer could have created a runaway chain reaction to achieve the feat and in which is only applicable to the cloud being (a weakness).
Good lord. Yes, Surfer reformed Doom and he healed in the process. Again, he wasn't trying to kill him, he just removed him. If he was trying to kill him, he'd be dead.
He took out Galactus. That's much more impressive than taking out BA.
Surfer clapped his hands and took out an area of the military that was comparable to the area of military that BA had a harder time taking out. That is the point your missing.
Galactus was a cosmic being 20 times the size of the earth who was destroying it. What durability feats do you need? You act like BA could just punch it and have the same affect. And what in the hell are you talking about with this stupid domino affect you conjured up out of thin air? Whatever it is, it's something BA couldn't have done. While BA fights characters like Hawkman, the Surfer destroys planet busters. That should be all you need to know.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Regular lightning, yes. But regular lightning shot at such close distances should have been instantaneous. The fact that we could see the lightning move in the air proves that it was nowhere close to moving as fast as regular lightning.BA's lightning is obviously nowhere near as fast as you make it out to be and trying to sell Hawkman, Dr. Fate and Atom Smasher as some sort of speedsters is just silly.
Then tell me how fast it is. Even if you cut it in half, it is still much faster than a highball assumption of the missiles.
Originally posted by tkitna
Are you serious? Doom sucker punched him with the blast. Yes Surfer felt it. Was he hurt? More annoyed i'd say. I doubt BA's lightning would have any worse affects.Did you pay any attention as to what happened to Doom afterwards? He's lucky Surfer wasn't trying to kill him and he still got vaporized for a brief moment until he reformed inside the snowbank or whatever the shelter was.
One other thing, did you see the results of Dooms blasts after he was on the board. General Hagar wasn't doing so well afterwards. The power cosmic is on another level here.
Well, yes, he sucker punched him in the back - doesn't change that Surfer felt it, from Doom, whose greatest feats of electricity discharge aren't on the level of BA's.
And yes, I saw what happened to Doom. I thought it irrelevant, as I agree that Surfer has a good chance to hurt BA, If he has the chance to do so. I am saying he never gets that chance, either from BA punching him, or hitting him with magical lightning, or punching him with magical lightning.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
as I agree that Surfer has a good chance to hurt BA, [b]If he has the chance to do so. I am saying he never gets that chance, either from BA punching him, or hitting him with magical lightning, or punching him with magical lightning. [/B]
And this is where our opinion breaks down and that's ok. I don't think BA can take Surfer out before he can respond and you do. We both have opinions that really can't be proved and we're sticking with them and that's fine.
Thanks for the civil debate DS. That's how they all should be.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then tell me how fast it is. Even if you cut it in half, it is still much faster than a highball assumption of the missiles.
I can tell you that Hawkman shows no indication of using superspeed when he lifted his arm and blocked that lightning with his shield. There's no slow-motion effects, nor sped up shots. Nothing in that shot indicates he's moving faster that regular speed. So it doesn't really matter how fast that lightning is moving because our main argument is not about that lightning. It's about whether or not Hawkman showcases superspeed... which he does not.
Using real-world numbers to justify the lightning's speed won't apply here because that lightning bolt (technically we don't really have any proof that it's lightning at all) is obviously moving a lot slower than real lightning due to us being able to see it move through the air at such close distances.
So if you really want to insist he has some form of super speed or super reflexes, onus is on you to prove how fast that lightning was moving. I'm simply going by what was shown on screen, and based on what was shown there's no indication that he's moving at super speed.