Originally posted by ODG
Yea, but what he said about this being Xavier's bread and butter is kinda true. Xavier has vast experience manifesting his thoughts on the astral plane and during telepathic conversations. Some of which are very visual-based. And a GL ring is a weapon that manifests thoughts.It doesn't seem like anybody is really arguing against the notion that Xavier could use a GL ring "better" than Quicksilver. And if Xavier was amped by the Speedforce, nobody would likely argue he couldn't win a quick-draw contest against an unamped Xavier.
But should it be that surprising that Xavier/Hector Hammond could use a GL ring "faster" than Quicksilver/Mary Marvel? If you read enough comics, the realm of thought isn't exactly measured by RL speed:
Just seen this.
I see telepathy (and teleportation) as ignoring distance, so to speak - the time taken for a telepathic bolt to travel 1 mile is the same as travelling 10 miles (or in X's case, a galaxy). That doesn't mean his reactions are faster than a speedster like Quicksilver who runs that 10 miles, though.
If I had a message to send across a football field, i can either shout across it, or my friend (who knows the message) could sprint across it at the speed of Usain Bolt. The shouter will of course send the message faster - but I'm not faster than Bolt at all. That's how it is with telepaths.
When X sends a telepathic message to Wolverine, or he sends entire battle plans (for example) - does Wolverine take ages to digest and process the plan? No - the speed at which X thinks at Logan, is the speed at which Logan processes it. When Martian Manhunter updates the entire JLA with battle tactics, do they need to wait for Plastic Man or Batman to catch up to the Flash/Superman? Not really. They all think at the speed of thought.
This thread is asking who can react to the information from Emma first, and act accordingly on said information.
^ I wasn't arguing Xavier could exceed Quicksilver's physical motor speed.
But when it comes to thought, a telepath's thoughts aren't really constrained by physical motor speed.
If you gave them both pistols, I'd readily give Quicksilver the edge in a quickdraw contest.
But you gave them both GL rings. GL rings are thought-based weapons. /shrug
Originally posted by ODG
^ I wasn't arguing Xavier could exceed Quicksilver's physical motor speed.But when it comes to thought, a telepath's thoughts aren't really constrained by physical motor speed.
If you gave them both pistols, I'd readily give Quicksilver the edge in a quickdraw contest.
But you gave them both GL rings. GL rings are thought-based weapons. /shrug
But their neurons, their synapses, their reactions, are still constrained.
I am obviously not getting the other side's arguments, so let me try and break it down stage by stage:
A:Emma slips the card, sees the symbol on it, broadcasts it simultaneously to all participants. They all receive it simultaneously.
B: The contestant reacts to it ('It's a circle!'😉
C: The contestant thinks 'Circle'
D: The ring forms the appropriate construct.
A and D are equal amongst all the contestants (hopefully we agree on this at least!). B and C are what's different - and if people are not saying B is Quicksilver's to lose (i.e. we agree that Quicksilver is fastest at B, followed by Wolverine etc), and that C is where and how Professor X wins the gold....that makes no sense to me.
Are people really agreeing that Quicksilver has the fastest reactions, but the time it then takes for him to think 'Circle' is so much slower than Professor X that he loses??? We know in step B, that Quicksilver is capable of reacting in picoseconds...but now we're saying that he recognises that it's a circle, but then...is unable to think of a circle before Professor X slowly recognises its a circle and then thinks of one?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85If Xavier's neurons were constrained, he could not stretch out seconds of real time conscious thought into an eternity just by simply willing it so. His neurons simply could not keep up.
But their neurons, their synapses, their reactions, are still constrained.
But they did keep up. Ergo, Xavier isn't as constrained by real life physics as one might normally expect. Because, yknow, comics.
Originally posted by ODG
If Xavier's neurons were constrained, he could not stretch out seconds of real time conscious thought into an eternity just by simply willing it so. His neurons simply could not keep up.But they did keep up. Ergo, Xavier isn't as constrained by real life physics as one might normally expect. Because, yknow, comics.
I see that as the same way my mind can stretch entire dreams in a few minutes of dreaming.
But your argument is that step C is incredibly short for X, short enough that even if Quicksilver can react in picoseconds, he can still catch up?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Err... are we assuming the rules of Inception apply to real life???
I see that as the same way my mind can stretch entire dreams in a few minutes of dreaming.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I admit I didn't really pay attention to your proposed Steps A-D. I definitely didn't parse them separately. A cursory glance leads me to think that because Xavier is a telepath possessing comic telepathy and the GL ring is a thought-based weapon, that steps B-D end up being blurred/blended, if not outright merged.
But your argument is that step C is incredibly short for X, short enough that even if Quicksilver can react in picoseconds, he can still catch up?
I don't necessarily agree with how you characterize Steps B-D. That's your definition/interpretation of how it'd work. Not necessarily mine.
I think it bears mentioning that: I really don't have a strong opinion one way or another on this specific hypothetical. It looked like an interesting conversation between a lot of good KMC posters.
I... I just felt left out...
Originally posted by ODG
Err... are we assuming the rules of Inception apply to real life??? I admit I didn't really pay attention to your proposed Steps A-D. I definitely didn't parse them separately. A cursory glance leads me to think that because Xavier is a telepath possessing comic telepathy and the GL ring is a thought-based weapon, that steps B-D end up being blurred/blended, if not outright merged.I don't necessarily agree with how you characterize Steps B-D. That's your definition/interpretation of how it'd work. Not necessarily mine.
I think it bears mentioning that: I really don't have a strong opinion one way or another on this specific hypothetical. It looked like an interesting conversation between a lot of good KMC posters.
I... I just felt left out...
I mean. When Xavier has a long drawn out conversation with someone, are THEY also not constrained by physics?
Like,say, he has a mental conversation with Logan. Fine, X is a telepath, his neurons are super fast etc. But Logan is perfectly fine keeping up
Or here:
Jean and Beast, mid-battle, go to the Astral Plane and have an entire conversation, talking tactics etc:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072081-1.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/11137/111378174/8072080-2.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072079-3.jpg
He ends the convo, and goes back to the fight - and Beast notes no time has passed in the real world.
Does Beast have FTL thought speeds?
Does Storm? Here, she has an entire girls' shopping trip with Jean, has coffee, goes dancing, goes shopping etc - all in the space of time of a lightning bolt:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072078-4.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072077-5.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072076-6.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072075-7.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072074-8.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072073-9.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072072-10.jpg
At this rate, soon anyone who has a conversation with a telepath is going to be FTL in their neuron-firing.
^ Seems like you're begging a question that you yourself have amply answered with more evidence than even I provided. Each one of those scenes involves a high-end telepath that brings a non-telepath(s) into their own consciousness/astral plane for conversation.
And it's the telepath that allows for what's clearly and undeniably occurring within the four corners of these comic book pages: actual thoughts (including visualizations of thoughts) are being processed at far higher speeds beyond the normal constraints of real life neurons firing.
Because that's apparently something high-end telepaths can do/facilitate.
And this fictional comic quickdraw contest involves a fictional comic thought-based weapon where fictional comic telepathy exists. So... ?
Originally posted by carver9Me wanderin out in dem fields of comics, pickin the best Hulk scans day in and day out with my bare hands for profits I'll never see... I feel oppressed! You workin me like a slave driver!
Lol...Did you start working on that respect thread?
Originally posted by ODG
^ Seems like you're begging a question that you yourself have amply answered with more evidence than even I provided. Each one of those scenes involves a high-end telepath that brings a non-telepath(s) into their own consciousness/astral plane for conversation.And it's the telepath that allows for what's clearly and undeniably occurring within the four corners of these comic book pages: actual thoughts (including visualizations of thoughts) are being processed at far higher speeds beyond the normal constraints of real life neurons firing.
Because that's apparently something high-end telepaths can do/facilitate.
And this fictional comic quickdraw contest involves a fictional comic thought-based weapon where fictional comic telepathy exists. So... ? Me wanderin out in dem fields of comics, pickin the best Hulk scans day in and day out with my bare hands for profits I'll never see... I feel oppressed! You workin me like a slave driver!
But the point being that anyone who in the Astral Plane is capable of having entire conversations/life experiences etc, in the span of moments. It's not this:
Originally posted by ODG
If Xavier's neurons were constrained, he could not stretch out seconds of real time conscious thought into an eternity just by simply willing it so. His neurons simply could not keep up.But they did keep up. Ergo, Xavier isn't as constrained by real life physics as one might normally expect. Because, yknow, comics.
Anyone can keep up. So telepaths themselves do not have special neurons or what have you - the astral plane is just a place where time/distance does not apply.
They're not faster than normal humans. They're not processing at speeds higher than normal,, let alone FTL, any more than Moira or Beast are processing at speeds FTL.
Originally posted by carver9
Also, those scans Dark posted, it seems like the telepathy are controlling the speed process of the characters. They are choosing whom minds are processing things at super speed and whom mind isn't. This is a sign of skill, versatility, and super speed at the same time.
If I listen to an audio file at 100x normal speed, if my brain cannot keep up, it's just nonsense.
Beast, Storm and Moira (and many others) are able to keep up. Despite not having telepathic powers.
Therefore, it doesn't need superfast perceptions/reactions for telepathic conversations in the astral plane that last a moment in real time. It's like using hyperspace to travel - you're not necessarily fast in 'real' terms, but are taking a shortcut.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Never quantified Xavier's thoughts as FTL. But he can process thoughts/facilitate other's thoughts using telepathy far faster than real life neurons allow.
They're not processing at speeds higher than normal,, let alone FTL, any more than Moira or Beast are processing at speeds FTL.
You mention the astral plane as some sort of facilitating agent? A closer analysis of your scans might prove that to be true but Xavier can stretch conversations without completely emptying his consciousness onto the astral plane. The example I initially provided had Xavier stretch a few seconds into a pages-long telepathic debate while he was actually disconnecting Danger's head from her body in the physical world:
The astral plane wasn't a factor in the example I provided. Bottom-line is, you 're posting scans in protest that ironically seem to support my position more than undermine it. But we don't really need to deconstruct how telepathy works in comics. It's not an exact science. It's fiction written by many authors who compound and contradict it each other.
Long story short, you give them simple pistols, Quicksilver wins a quick draw contest because he can twitch his finger faster. But you gave them thought-based weapons. An argument could be made that Xavier wins a quick draw contest because he has feats of "thinking" faster.
