Hulk vs Wolverine vs Professor X vs Quicksilver!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And again - we see that when it comes to having conversations, telepathic conversations, non-telepaths are capable of keeping up with telepaths. When a telepath downloads reams of information, battle tactics etc into their team-mates' minds, the non-telepaths are perfectly capable of processing and understanding said plans. Emma is able to dump languages into Storm/Wolverine's mind - they keep up pretty well.

What you're arguing now -- which oddly contradicts your prior arguments -- is mere association fallacy.

Originally posted by ODG
I would submit such results are the direct result of the telepath. Not a reflection of the non-telepath's brain capacities.

Or is it not just 'comics'?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Or is it not just 'comics'?

Somehow you think if Psylocke and Xavier both wore GL rings, Psylocke could draw sh1t faster than Xavier cuz she ninja-trained. And I guess GL Stel could easily outspeed GL Hal Jordan in any aspect of GL ring-slinging since he's an advanced alien robot and not a human fleshbag. Ok, whatever.

I cannot recall ever seeing such speed advantages manifest that way between mutant telepaths, much less the supreme mutant telepath that Xavier represents.

I cannot recall ever seeing such speed advantages manifest that way between different GLs either (although this makes more sense to me than the former).

Somehow, I'm doing it wrong. Whatever, mang. I feel like we're all just going in circles. It's not interesting anymore.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Oh, ok.

Telepath task is to command "sleep"
Speedster task is to target and kill people

Speedster also has to perform the necessary physical actions before the Telepath completes her single task, but we're just focusing on the thinking part.

None of it is about RL biology. It's just what we see on the page in the comic. Jean detects something in his mind (and gets a bonus warning from Spider-Man) but she doesn't manage to think "sleep" sooner than his mind compels him to kill (which he does, twice).

So given that he had more tasks and carried them out, the only conclusion left is that his mind was moving faster off the cuff of the quickdraw.

Are we at least agreed that that's what happens in that scene?

Originally posted by ODG
Hey, mang. I cannot tell what you're arguing anymore.

Somehow you think if Psylocke and Xavier both wore GL rings, Psylocke could draw sh1t faster than Xavier cuz she ninja-trained. And I guess GL Stel could easily outspeed GL Hal Jordan in any aspect of GL ring-slinging since he's an advanced alien robot and not a human fleshbag. Ok, whatever.

I cannot recall ever seeing such speed advantages manifest that way between mutant telepaths, much less the supreme mutant telepath that Xavier represents.

I cannot recall ever seeing such speed advantages manifest that way between different GLs either (although this makes more sense to me than the former).

Somehow, I'm doing it wrong. Whatever, mang. I feel like we're all just going in circles. It's not interesting anymore.

Well I started the thread hoping to see reaction feats from all. Instead, what I got was 'Professor X MUST be the fastest, because...otherwise, how could he stretch milliseconds of time out into hours/days??'

Answer: no, it's comics. Same way Moira can.

'How else can Professor X be able to project his thoughts out into space and still get the message out in time??'

Answer: comics. Same way Reed can.

'How else can Professor X process such large amounts of infomation?? He must have superfast brain!!'

Answer: comics. Same way Rogue can process entire life memories and skills in a second. Same way any non-telepath can understand what the telepath is telling them (such as in this case, Emma telling them it is an apple/bicycle/fish).

You simultaneously argue/imply that we should follow things to their conclusion (Professor X can do X, and Y, therefore Z, because comics) whilst arguing....we shouldn't (Speedster telepaths can do X, and Y, does that mean, dear Darksaint85, that Z?? Lollers!'😉?

Why don't mutant telepaths have such clear speed advantages over each other? Comics. Same way, as you say:

^ All things considered equal, yes, not giving Psylocke the benefit of the doubt of her feats would be stupid.

I DID ask you what you thought the process here was - but didn't get an answer (it was probably lost in the ether, tbh). And I DID ask for actual reflex feats from X, but Leo kinda fell flat in that regard.

mmm

How do we think this thread goes between Reed and Xavier?

Originally posted by ODG
I would submit such results are the direct result of the telepath.

What you're arguing now -- which oddly contradicts your prior arguments -- is mere association fallacy.

Somehow, I'm doing it wrong. Whatever, mang. I feel like we're all just going in circles. It's not interesting anymore.

yep. you've run through all the same thought processes i have in the course of this discussion man. lol

Originally posted by Smurph
Cool. So that brings us back to: the Quicksilver showing is an illustration of two people (one, a telepath and one, a speedster) in a quickdraw to complete independent mental tasks.

Why would you return to these scans??? They're utterly meaningless.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well I started the thread hoping to see reaction feats from all.

I kinda don't understand why you won't simply declare that GL Stel could easily outspeed GL Hal Jordan in any aspect of GL ring-slinging since he's an advanced alien robot and not a human fleshbag (which makes more sense to me). But this thread don't even deal with that... it deals with the greatest mutant telepath in Marvel in a drawing contest.

So why you won't stand behind your own reasoning and just openly declare that if Psylocke and Xavier both wore GL rings, Psylocke could draw sh1t faster than Xavier cuz she ninja-trained?

Just say it. And if you do, it's not like I got some secret plan or ace up my sleeve. I just realize that if you truly believe that, there's simply no further discussion to be had between us. We just disagree. That's ok, mang.

Originally posted by ODG
Ummm... I thought I made this clear beforehand but I'll be very blunt now: I could honestly care less about an alternate reality Quicksilver's superspeed feat. It's an illustration of what you'd like to project onto this scenario involving 616 Quicksilver and 616 Xavier w/ thought-based weapons. But it's about as irrelevant as me posting an alternate reality Thor snapping Hulk's neck in a What If? during a 616 Hulk vs 616 Thor wrestling thread debate.

Why would you return to these scans??? They're utterly meaningless. no

Originally posted by ODG

I just don't see it happening on-panel. Largely because I cannot recall seeing it on-panel. Which I guess is my own subjective measure of these kinds of hypotheticals.

I'm not saying this is canon to 616 Jean. I'm saying: are we agreed that this is an illustration of type of thing you say would fly in the face of "mutant telepath history"?

In other words: yes, this is not 616. And you're saying it wouldn't align with how thinking speed is depicted in 616. Right?

Originally posted by Smurph
Because, you said and you asked me to opine on hypotheticals if we changed the facts in various ways.

I'm not saying this is canon to 616 Jean. I'm saying: are we agreed that this is an illustration of type of thing you say would fly in the face of "mutant telepath history"?

In other words: yes, this is not 616. And you're saying it wouldn't align with how thinking speed is depicted in 616. Right?

I guess I'll blame that on myself? Apparently this is all my fault. grumpy

Yeah, nobody's arguing about canonicity.

Your argument is premised in part on what would fly in the face of "mutant telepath history". I'm trying to clarify what you meant by way of an example.

Is this an example of the kind of thing that would fly in the face of mutant telepath history?

Originally posted by ODG
Ummm... I thought I made this clear beforehand but I'll be very blunt now: I could honestly care less about an alternate reality Quicksilver's superspeed feat. It's an illustration of what you'd like to project onto this scenario involving 616 Quicksilver and 616 Xavier w/ thought-based weapons. But it's about as irrelevant as me posting an alternate reality Thor snapping Hulk's neck in a What If? during a 616 Hulk vs 616 Thor wrestling thread debate.

Why would you return to these scans??? They're utterly meaningless. Yes, I realize that. You want to pigeonhole and focus on physical reflex feats and reject all thought speed feats from the conversation. I get it. I just don't agree with it.

I kinda don't understand why you won't simply declare that GL Stel could easily outspeed GL Hal Jordan in any aspect of GL ring-slinging since he's an advanced alien robot and not a human fleshbag (which makes more sense to me). But this thread don't even deal with that... it deals with the greatest mutant telepath in Marvel in a drawing contest.

So why you won't stand behind your own reasoning and just openly declare that if Psylocke and Xavier both wore GL rings, Psylocke could draw sh1t faster than Xavier cuz she ninja-trained?

Just say it. And if you do, it's not like I got some secret plan or ace up my sleeve. I just realize that if you truly believe that, there's simply no further discussion to be had between us. We just disagree. That's ok, mang.

It's.... what I'm saying.

Psylocke would win in a quickdraw, all things being equal.
One could argue Xavier winning based on his mental battle feats, perhaps (e.g. against Exodus), but assuming both sides had equal experience and skill, Psylocke would be faster.

With the GLs, it's comics, man. Hal would always come out top.

Against Guy, now, that's a different matter.

Originally posted by leonidas
yep. you've run through all the same thought processes i have in the course of this discussion man. lol

Yeah, you ended when you realised you didn't have any reflex feats. Not throwing shade, it is what it is.

😂

why on earth would i throw out reflex feats when i don't think it's reflex related?? *facepalm* i've said ALL ALONG that the outcome of a quickdraw using PURELY thought based powers should stand on speed of thought feats. tp's have TONS of them. you disagreed and said the winner of a quick draw between two people using PURELY thought based powers is based on biology and reflex. fine. but then you swapped goalposts and asked ME to provide reflex feats? i mean really?? lol why in stan's name would i provide proof for something i never said, nor couldn't disagree with more?? tp's have uber thought speed. hence--as i've said 100 times--i think they should win a quickdraw where speed of thought is the only deciding factor.

but, but, but, but...... but nothing. with the exception of speedsters who CAN and HAVE increased thought speed, against anyone else i'll STILL give the edge to a high end tp. again--as i've also said 100 times--it is no more complicated than that. i sound like a broken record by now and the discussion has gone exactly nowhere. THAT is why i quit.

Originally posted by Smurph
Yeah, nobody's arguing about canonicity.

Your argument is premised in part on what would fly in the face of "mutant telepath history". I'm trying to clarify what you meant by way of an example.

Is this an example of the kind of thing that would fly in the face of mutant telepath history?

But I would never think Emma, Jean or Psylocke would ever defeat a cripple Xavier in a quickdraw telepath contest. Because the comics I have read do not suggest so.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Psylocke would win in a quickdraw, all things being equal.
One could argue Xavier winning based on his mental battle feats, perhaps (e.g. against Exodus), but assuming both sides had equal experience and skill, Psylocke would be faster.

With the GLs, it's comics, man. Hal would always come out top.

You think Psylocke outspeeds Xavier in a telepathy contest because her ninja training over his cripple state.

But conversely you believe GL Stel loses to GL Hal in a quick drawing contest despite his advanced alien A.I. composition over Hal's fleshbagginess.

I see a stark contradiction. But you don't. So we don't really have anywhere else to progress constructively from here. I have my opinion and you have your's.

Originally posted by ODG
For me? Yes. Xavier is a cripple. Emma Frost is in extremely good physical health/shape. Jean is a supremely athletic young lady due to constant training. Psylocke/Kwannon is straight-up ninja trained to be peak human or beyond.

But I would never think Emma, Jean or Psylocke would ever defeat a cripple Xavier in a quickdraw telepath contest. Because the comics I have read do not suggest so.

Psylocke is just a particular example of a telepath and a ninja/highly skilled MA. Two attributes that tend to lead to higher reflexes. In comics, a high enough level of skill almost becomes a spider sense. The amount of evidence we could muster to prove that telepathy improves reflexes would be a molehill compared to the mountain of evidence that skill improves reflexes.

Also, for whatever it's worth, Xavier was out of his wheelchair for the majority of the 80s, most of the 00s, and again since 2017 and through the whole Krakoa era. And the dude was weirdly fit whether he was in or out of the chair. He just doesn't have reflex feats because they're not his thing. And if they're not his thing, why would he get the advantage over Wolverine or Quicksilver in a pure contest of simple reflexes?

Anyways, yeah, this has gone in circles.

Imo, all of the proof that your and Leo's positions rely on just establish that telepaths tend to have more powerful minds - which does include thinking speed. But none of that is proof that telepaths automatically have heightened mental reflexes.

If I have two cars, and I know that Car A has a vastly higher top speed, and even better handling at high speeds, then I can safely say that Car A is the faster car. But if the contest is just which engine can turn over and go from 0 to 60 the quickest, then I need to know more about how the cars compare in terms of acceleration.

It's a rare gap in Prof X's catalogue of mental feats, but I think Quicksilver and Wolverine definitely have more proof in that very specific respect.

Originally posted by Smurph
I guess this is where you lose me. Looking at that scene (again, not as proof--it's not 616--but just because it's easier to pin down the disconnect with an actual example rather than hypotheticals) I see the issue as that Pietro's super speed made his reflexes faster, despite Jean being a telepath. Her body never factored in, so I'm lost as to why her physical fitness would have mattered. Her task was purely telepathic.

Psylocke is just a particular example of a telepath and a ninja/highly skilled MA. Two attributes that tend to lead to higher reflexes. In comics, a high enough level of skill almost becomes a spider sense. The amount of evidence we could muster to prove that telepathy improves reflexes would be a molehill compared to the mountain of evidence that skill improves reflexes.

Also, for whatever it's worth, Xavier was out of his wheelchair for the majority of the 80s, most of the 00s, and again since 2017 and through the whole Krakoa era. And the dude was weirdly fit whether he was in or out of the chair. He just doesn't have reflex feats because they're not his thing. And if they're not his thing, why would he get the advantage over Wolverine or Quicksilver in a pure contest of simple reflexes?

So in your estimation, why wouldn't the ranking be: cripple Xavier <<< fit Emma <<< super athletic Jean <<< ninja trained Psylocke?

Xavier's vastly superior telepathic/mental speed feats, be damned.

That's why you both put a non-telepath like Wolverine over Xavier in this particular thread scenario, after all?

Darksaint85 owned the ultimate conclusion to be derived from your reasoning. Seems you do as well. So what are you even arguing anymore?

Originally posted by ODG
Bruh. Seems like your's and Darksaint85's whole point is that someone with faster physical speed/reflexes is the same as someone with faster mental speed/reflexes.

So in your estimation, why wouldn't the ranking be: cripple Xavier <<< fit Emma <<< super athletic Jean <<< ninja trained Psylocke?

Xavier's vastly superior telepathic/mental speed feats, be damned.

That's why you both put a non-telepath like Wolverine over Xavier in this particular thread scenario, after all?

Darksaint85 owned the ultimate conclusion to be derived from your reasoning. Seems you do as well. So what are you even arguing anymore?

Look, I was able to have an actual conversation with Leo to identify the specific impasse at which we disagree. With you, it's just been a series of accusations about logical fallacies that you're actively trading in, and a failure to engage with the point in dispute.

Anyways, ya, we disagree.

Originally posted by Smurph
With you, it's just been a series of accusations about logical fallacies that you're actively trading in, and a failure to engage with the point in dispute.

Ok? Apparently it has been all my fault. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
yep. you've run through all the same thought processes i have in the course of this discussion man. lol