Also in that vein, like... clearly classic Psylocke with her ninja-training had much faster physical reflexes than a cripple like Xavier.
Has there ever been a scene in comics that suggests, "Someone needs to warn the X-Men Gold team of the danger once we disable these psi-blockers!"
"Xavier, can you-"
"No! Psylocke has better reflexes! She can communicate faster with the X-Men Gold squad than Xavier!"
/shrug
Originally posted by SmurphYou motherf- I just now noticed you trying to slide Wolverithmetics into this discussion! How dare you! crackers
I do think that Whedon mostly wrote Logan as comic relief so I don't put a ton of stock in that comparison (better to compare high showings, I think)
I blame the beer for me not noticing at first.
Gdi, I'm getting drunk in my old age... belch
It's been a little unclear when you've been taking a position vs playing devil's advocate within the debate with Leo, but since both Leo and I seem to agree on that point, it didn't seem controversial.
i'm not entirely sure what we agreed on...? 😂 we reached an impasse when you said a quickdraw between sue and a high end tp would come down to reaction feats. i get why you say that. but i disagree entirely and the discussion had become circular. the example of f1 vs genius is clever but...neither can process and transfer years of info in an hour or send their thoughts across the universe or expand someone's consciousness to a universal degree in an instant. so while clever, not apt. but neither of us is budging here so.... yeah. i get your point. but i don't agree with it. not in the particular case i've been discussing. *shrug*
Originally posted by ODGNot that I know of
Also in that vein, like... clearly classic Psylocke with her ninja-training had much faster physical reflexes than a cripple like Xavier.Has there ever been a scene in comics that suggests, "Someone needs to warn the X-Men Gold team of the danger once we disable these psi-blockers!"
"Xavier, can you-"
"No! Psylocke has better reflexes! She can communicate faster with the X-Men Gold squad than Xavier!"
/shrug
But Psylocke definitely has the feats to suggest she could have performed better than Jean did to rapidly "sleep" Quicksilver, in Carver's scans 👆
^ I guess it's appropriate to point out that I haven't really been paying attention to leonidas' or carver9's posts here. I've been more than amply engaged by you and Darksaint85.
But in passing over them, I thought I read those scans being debunked as alternate reality scans???
If not, what are Psylocke's feats that suggest she'd do better than Jean? Which, even if answered definitively, what are Psylocke's feats that suggest she'd do better than Xavier would've?
Yeah, they're alternate reality. I gesture to the scans by way of analogy, in response to your question, not as proof that Jean is a slow turtle.
I can post Psylocke stuff later, but she has plenty of reflex feats, including using psi to specifically amp her speed, as well as stuff like running up shrapnel. In a pure quickdraw between her and Xavier, failing to give "full faith and credit" to those feats because Xavier is a more powerful telepath would strike me as disingenuous.
^ All things considered equal, yes, not giving Psylocke the benefit of the doubt of her feats would be stupid.
It's just when it comes to quickdraw contests involving pure thought or thought-based weapons? The library of comics I've read has severely diminished (if not outright eliminated) the idea of relative biology-based physiological speed from being a factor. Does it make sense from a real life perspective? No. But, we ain't arguing real life, we're arguing comics. And comics make their own rules.
I mean, I agree, comics over biology. But giving highly skilled streets absurd reaction abilities is also part of the rules of comics.
Originally posted by ODG👆
^ All things considered equal, yes, not giving Psylocke the benefit of the doubt of her feats would be stupid.
Originally posted by ODGAnd... wherein the library of comics is the underlined portion?
It's just when it comes to quickdraw contests involving pure thought or thought-based weapons? The library of comics I've read has severely diminished (if not outright eliminated) the idea of relative biology-based physiological speed from being a factor.
I agree, if comics have decisively shown how this specific thread scenario plays out, then that's authoritative. But I kinda think you're overstating how much comics have severely diminished (much less eliminated) the possibilities here. I agree that it's not about real world biology, but comics have a lot to say about the relative ability of certain heroes to act absurdly fast in a quickdraw.
Originally posted by SmurphAt the risk of being reductive, Xavier has contended with aliens, higher forms of life, A.I. and cosmic forces that should have faster physiological reflexes. But I honestly don't recall a single instance where Xavier was shut down because: "Haha, your simple human biology too slow." I could be proven wrong but I feel like it woulda been brought up by now. To me, it sorta flies in the face of mutant telepath history.
And... wherein the library of comics is the underlined portion?I agree, if comics have decisively shown how this specific thread scenario plays out, then that's authoritative. But I kinda think you're overstating how much comics have severely diminished (much less eliminated) the possibilities here. I agree that it's not about real world biology, but comics have a lot to say about the relative ability of certain heroes to act absurdly fast in a quickdraw.
And then on the flipside, I can't think of a single GL comic where GLs that should have faster physiological reflexes because they're aliens, higher forms of life, A.I., mathematical equations (lol, but canon) have exploited this apparently supreme flaw in the greatest GL in history, Hal Jordan: "Haha, your simple human biology too slow." Has that come up, like ever? So conversely, it just flies in the face of GL history.
We got a biiiiiigggggg library of comics and neither you nor I can come up with something definitive. Hence my comment.
I just don't see it happening on-panel. Largely because I cannot recall seeing it on-panel. Which I guess is my own subjective measure of these kinds of hypotheticals.
That's why this is such an on-point illustration though.
"It only took one second for Jean Grey to reach Quicksilver's mind. To shut him down.
But so much damage had already been done -- damage we couldn't reverse."
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Raw speed pretty much phucked them over. And interestingly, QS previously in the issue was too fast to be detected by anyone - including Apocalypse, a telepath:
^ I mean... neither of them were wielding thought-based weapons tho? And the task to accomplish/shutdown was not to form a GL image, it was to attack/deflect a physical attack.
If they were both wielding Cerebro helmets where the attack was mentally-based, I think it's arguable that Jean would shut Quicksilver down before he could mentally attack innocents.
But I dunno, because of an alternate reality Quicksilver's feat, Wolverine could generate a GL image before Xavier could??? I'm definitely missing something here. There's this salient premise that connects everything together you guys have been arguing. And I am clearly missing it. But I'm past blaming myself for missing it.
I just kinda think it doesn't exist at all.
Jean was obviously wielding a thought based weapon. If her mind doesn't count, then neither could the X/Danger showing.
Maybe you're focused too much on imagining this thread as a mental battle? Or a ring slinging battle? In which one character out-speeding the other would seem out of place?
This is four characters racing mentally to complete a supremely simple task. All the complexity has been flattened, it's just a race to mentally push a button, with no interaction between the parties.
A bit like Jean reacting to push the sleep button but her mind moving relatively slower than Quicksilver's mind commanding his body to kill x2.
Originally posted by ODG
Isn't that a giant-sized [b]IF that would essentially assume its conclusion?What do you want me to say?
Yes, if Jenny Sparks attacks Xavier completely unaware and drains his brain of electrical impulses, game over. But that's not what this thread is.
If they were staring at each other w/ guns and the contest is a quickdraw?? I'm not sure what'd happen. I'd guess Jenny Sparks has more feats with guns than Xavier given how old she is? So Jenny wins, I guess. But again that's not what this thread is.
If they were staring at each other w/ Jenny's electric powers vs Xavier's telepathy in a quickdraw to phuck their brains? I'm not exactly sure what'd happen, but I might take Xavier more often than not given how weird comics measures the speed of telepathy. But again again that's not what this thread is.
If they were staring at each other and asked to draw something with a purely thought-based weapon like a GL ring. I might be even more inclined to side with Xavier on that. That's what this thread is asking, isn't it? And I feel like Xavier's speed of thought is extremely relevant, if not determinative of this contest.
I feel like I'm being accused of fleeing from the thread topic yet I'm sitting here like... I think you guys are the ones going off-topic. [/B]
Ah, I think you misunderstood the point of my post, which may be entirely down to me.
I was NOT trying to introduce another variable, to compare Jenny's speed to X's. As you rightly point out, this is not the thread for that. What I was responding to, was your assertion that telepathy does not rely on physical processes.
Whilst I 100% agree with you, that telepathy has ZERO basis with RL science, in comics, telepathy still relies on biochemical processes, on electrical signals flowing between synapses etc. On physical processes. I think you and I both agree on this - for example, IF all the electricity is drained from Xavier's head, he isn't firing off any telepathic bolts across a room, let alone a galaxy. His brain relies on electricity.
So we agree telepathy relies on physical processes, still. And unless the electricity in X's head....is faster than the electricity in Logan's head, that's the same speed. We can extend this to other parts of the pathway - if Magneto controlled all the blood to flow away from his brain, can X still fire telepathy? I wager no, again. If a matter manipulator converted his neurons into marshmallow, he cannot think either.
In short, telepathy relies on physical processes. Which are the same speed. (unless there is proof otherwise, as Smurph says). Hulk has his gamma amped speed, Wolverine has his mutated speed, and QS is....QS. Not saying that X is the same level as RL human off the street, no. But he is human as much as Punisher, or Sue, or Jubilee et al are human - i.e. trained comic humans.
Originally posted by SmurphBut GL rings aren't activated by physical movement via a button press. They're activated by thought.
This is four characters racing mentally to complete a supremely simple task. All the complexity has been flattened, it's just a race to mentally push a button, with no interaction between the parties.A bit like Jean reacting to push the sleep button but her mind moving relatively slower than Quicksilver's mind commanding his body to kill x2.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I disagree with how you leap to that second premise. Again, it's assuming your conclusion.
In short, telepathy relies on physical processes. Which are the same speed.
Originally posted by ODG
But GL rings aren't activated by physical movement via a button press. They're activated by thought. I disagree with how you leap to that second premise. Again, it's assuming your conclusion.
I...just assume that the electricity in X's brain is the same as the electricity in Logan's.
Is it not, then?
^ Oh, ok.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Not sure how electricity matters here. Do I think Xavier's brain conducts some sort of mutated bio-electricity? No, not necessarily.
I...just assume that the electricity in X's brain is the same as the electricity in Logan's.Is it not, then?
But somewhere along the path of Xavier's telepathy manifesting, something comic-sciencey happens that permits Xavier to process vast amounts of information at speeds that are impossible for simple human neurons to achieve. We have to accept it happens somehow. But until a comic book decides to specifically portray it, there's no point in torturing real life biological minutiae.
And again - we see that when it comes to having conversations, telepathic conversations, non-telepaths are capable of keeping up with telepaths. When a telepath downloads reams of information, battle tactics etc into their team-mates' minds, the non-telepaths are perfectly capable of processing and understanding said plans. Emma is able to dump languages into Storm/Wolverine's mind - they keep up pretty well. Logan can, with a thought, reach Emma telepathically no matter where she is. Reed can project his thoughts across galaxies to call Galactus. A depowered Surfer can call Legacy despite not having the power cosmic.
Rogue is able (another example) to gain the life memories and skills of people from a touch - are we suddenly going to argue she is a a speedster in her thinking as well?
Whilst you can handwave it away as 'comics', the problem here is that the other side of the coin can also be argued as 'comics'. Beast can have entire mental conversations with Jean, Storm and Jean can have entire shopping days out in the span of miliseconds - but that's not the telepath being faster, when conversing mentally, a normal comic book human would also be able to converse with a telepath with no issues. When it comes to reflexively acting on Emma's message and to tell the GL ring what to do, however, then reflex feats will come into play.