She-Hulk vs Wonder Woman

Originally posted by h1a8
It's amusing how you continue to avoid addressing the key points you can't refute. Focusing on the PM issue still ignores my other point, which makes the PM argument irrelevant. Your choice to highlight an irrelevant detail while sidestepping the more significant issue speaks volumes. I'll respond to your argument in point 1 below.

1. IMP is fully capable of reading these posts himself. If I had lied about him, he would have seen it and called it out. I even directly quoted him. However, what he said isn't the crux of my point, which I will restate below. You need to address that. I cannot enforce any rule or "non-rule"; only a mod can do that. I also can't force you to accept what a mod conveyed in a PM. If you choose to reject IMP's statement, that's up to you. I've now fully addressed your concern. There's no need to further discuss a mod's statement of a rule.

2. The main issue is She-Hulk leaving the battle to seek assistance from Kevin. If that wasn’t the case, why argue about the rules? If She-Hulk doesn’t need Kevin, she wouldn’t leave the battlefield to get his help, making any discussion about the rules surrounding her leaving to get Kevin's assistance moot. It seems important for you to focus on the rules, likely because the argument that She-Hulk doesn’t need Kevin is either unfounded or, at best, extremely weak.

Here’s the point that needs to be addressed (see below in QUOTE). If neither you nor anyone else is arguing that She-Hulk will leave the battlefield to get outside assistance from Kevin, feel free to disregard the following. I'll gladly pivot the argument in a different direction.

Yeah, I've basically rejected all of it.

Imp is indeed capable of reading my posts and yours.

He hasn't updated the ruling thread.

PMs and your attempts at prettily formatting posts don't change that

The rules do not state what the battlefield is. Ergo, She-Hulk is never actually leaving the battlefield.

The rules do not state that leaving the battlefield constitutes a loss. Ergo, she is free to do what she likes with regards to moving around.

The rules never stated the above. Ergo, you were flat out wrong when you said that the rules said so, and that it had 'always been the case'. You even tried to lie and say he linked to it in the rules thread, until I pointed out he just liked to general forum rules about under 13s etc.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, I've basically rejected all of it.

Imp is indeed capable of reading my posts and yours.

He hasn't updated the ruling thread.

PMs and your attempts at prettily formatting posts don't change that

The rules do not state what the battlefield is. Ergo, She-Hulk is never actually leaving the battlefield.

The rules do not state that leaving the battlefield constitutes a loss. Ergo, she is free to do what she likes with regards to moving around.

The rules never stated the above. Ergo, you were flat out wrong when you said that the rules said so, and that it had 'always been the case'. You even tried to lie and say he linked to it in the rules thread, until I pointed out he just liked to general forum rules about under 13s etc.

I asked IMP whether the Movie Versus forum follows the same rules as the Comic Versus forum regarding full capacity, using BFR as a valid win condition, prohibiting leaving the battlefield, and disallowing outside assistance. He not only confirmed that it does, but stated that it has always been that way. These were his words, not mine. There was no dishonesty involved at any point. You even read the quote for yourself.

With that said,

it's amusing how you continue to avoid addressing the key points you can't refute. Focusing on the PM issue still ignores my other point, which makes the PM argument irrelevant. Your choice to highlight an irrelevant detail while sidestepping the more significant issue speaks volumes.

There's no need to further discuss a mod's statement of a rule since you stated that you will not be following it for the reasons you had given.

The point below needs to be addressed as it makes any discussion about that specific rule irrelevant.

These debates aim to determine which character would win in a direct fight. If a character leaves the battle to get outside assistance, it shifts the focus away from them and onto their allies, which defeats the purpose of answering the question, 'Who would win?' This undermines the debate's intent, which takes precedence over any specific rule. Arguing in favor of "outside interference" derails the discussion and borders on trolling

Also, you quoted KingDs post on how Jen doesn't need assistance from Kevin.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Pretty much. KingD rephrased it pretty well:

Are you debating that She-Hulk doesn't need Kevin's assistance to win? If so then we can shift the debate.

Originally posted by h1a8
I asked IMP whether the Movie Versus forum follows the same rules as the Comic Versus forum regarding full capacity, using BFR as a valid win condition, prohibiting leaving the battlefield, and disallowing outside assistance. He not only confirmed that it does, but stated that it has always been that way. These were his words, not mine. There was no dishonesty involved at any point. You even read the quote for yourself.

With that said,

it's amusing how you continue to avoid addressing the key points you can't refute. Focusing on the PM issue still ignores my other point, which makes the PM argument irrelevant. Your choice to highlight an irrelevant detail while sidestepping the more significant issue speaks volumes.

[b]There's no need to further discuss a mod's statement of a rule since you stated that you will not be following it for the reasons you had given.

The point below needs to be addressed as it makes any discussion about that specific rule irrelevant.

Also, you quoted KingDs post on how Jen doesn't need assistance from Kevin.

Are you debating that She-Hulk doesn't need Kevin's assistance to win? If so then we can shift the debate. [/B]

That quote is also from a PM, though? So equally invalid as the supposed PM of a rule.

So I also just....ignore it, as I've been saying all this time and you keep glossing over...

You have to prove that Jen can do such things. Forum rules says, "movie feats only". All we have seen is that Jen can speak to the audience while breaking the 4th wall, and also navigate the Disney app to go find Kevin.

She left her own reality (own show) or plane of existance to search for the writers. Yeah it was still within the Disney app because,,,,,,shockingly thats where the people she was searching for resided. Why couldn't she have gone wherever she wanted to if that was her choice. Why do you want to condem it just to the Disney app?

See your searching for any loophole to fit your argument. You want proof of something that your just going to refuse to accept anyways. Your tactic is to have somebody provide proof that she can leave and go wherever she chooses although she hasen't done so except in her own and Disney's environment although it's blatantly obvious she could if she wanted. Since she didn't though, you think that's your ace in the hole to say she can't.

This is just like any thread your involved in. You just puke different things and ways to not agree with the majority because the character you want to win can't. In doing so, there's pages upon pages of your stupidity (like arguing about the rules to fit your argument when there's no such rules). I just don't know why we continue to entertain even responding to you. That's on us I guess.

Originally posted by tkitna
She left her own reality (own show) or plane of existance to search for the writers. Yeah it was still within the Disney app because,,,,,,shockingly thats where the people she was searching for resided. Why couldn't she have gone wherever she wanted to if that was her choice. Why do you want to condem it just to the Disney app?

See your searching for any loophole to fit your argument. You want proof of something that your just going to refuse to accept anyways. Your tactic is to have somebody provide proof that she can leave and go wherever she chooses although she hasen't done so except in her own and Disney's environment although it's blatantly obvious she could if she wanted. Since she didn't though, you think that's your ace in the hole to say she can't.

This is just like any thread your involved in. You just puke different things and ways to not agree with the majority because the character you want to win can't. In doing so, there's pages upon pages of your stupidity (like arguing about the rules to fit your argument when there's no such rules). I just don't know why we continue to entertain even responding to you. That's on us I guess.

You must provide on-screen evidence to support a claim for a special attribute. That is the rule of debating.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That quote is also from a PM, though? So equally invalid as the supposed PM of a rule.

So I also just....ignore it, as I've been saying all this time and you keep glossing over...

There's no need to further discuss a mod's statement of a rule since you stated that you will not be following it for the reasons you had given.

The point below needs to be addressed as it makes any discussion about that specific rule irrelevant.

1. These debates are meant to determine which character would win in a direct fight. If a character leaves the battle to get outside assistance, it shifts the focus away from them and onto their allies, which defeats the purpose of answering the question, 'Who would win?' This approach undermines the intent of the debate, which takes precedence over any specific rule. Arguing in favor of "outside interference" derails the discussion and borders on trolling.

Or we can shift the debate if you agree with both KingD and Tkitna that She-Hulk doesn't need outside assistance to win.

Originally posted by h1a8

Are you debating that She-Hulk doesn't need Kevin's assistance to win? If so then we can shift the debate.

For the Millionth time, No She Doesn't specifically need KEVIN. KEVIN isnt some special ally of hers.

She goes to the "real" world in her She-Hulk form and goes to where she needs to (bullys who she needs to) to change the plot.

You're the ONLY one trying to Shift the debate away from this.

Originally posted by h1a8
[b]There's no need to further discuss a mod's statement of a rule since you stated that you will not be following it for the reasons you had given.

The point below needs to be addressed as it makes any discussion about that specific rule irrelevant.

Or we can shift the debate if you agree with both KingD and Tkitna that She-Hulk doesn't need outside assistance to win. [/B]

But that point is from.....where?

Originally posted by h1a8
You must provide on-screen evidence to support a claim for a special attribute. That is the rule of debating.

Proof. She can leave from where she is. No need for anything else.

Yeah the (special) attribute here is 'breaking the 4th wall'.

It's as asinine as arguing Superman can't lift a 100ton pencil, because we have never seen it in a movie. He can lift 100tons, he can lift pencils, ergo he can lift a 100ton pencil.

She-Hulk can move out of her reality, and can interact outside of it. Ergo she can move out of her reality, and interact outside of it. She isn't limited to just the Disney app, anymore than Superman is limited to oil rigs or tanker trucks.....

Originally posted by tkitna
Proof. She can leave from where she is. No need for anything else.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
For the Millionth time, No She Doesn't specifically need KEVIN. KEVIN isnt some special ally of hers.

She goes to the "real" world in her She-Hulk form and goes to where she needs to (bullys who she needs to) to change the plot.

You're the ONLY one trying to Shift the debate away from this.

No one in the real world is scripting the outcome of a forum fight. Even if I were in control of the plot, I couldn't be forced to do anything (not that I have the ability to change anything anyway). This ties back to my point about leaving the battlefield to seek outside help. Please address that point.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But that point is from.....where?

I brought the point up below.

These debates are meant to determine which character would win in a direct fight. If a character leaves the battle to get outside assistance, it shifts the focus away from them and onto their allies, which defeats the purpose of answering the question, 'Who would win?' This approach undermines the intent of the debate, which takes precedence over any specific rule. Arguing in favor of "outside interference" derails the discussion and borders on trolling.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah the (special) attribute here is 'breaking the 4th wall'.

It's as asinine as arguing Superman can't lift a 100ton pencil, because we have never seen it in a movie. He can lift 100tons, he can lift pencils, ergo he can lift a 100ton pencil.

She-Hulk can move out of her reality, and can interact outside of it. Ergo she can move out of her reality, and interact outside of it. She isn't limited to just the Disney app, anymore than Superman is limited to oil rigs or tanker trucks.....

Lmao at the Superman pencil analogy. You really are the king of faulty analogies. Did you get a C in logic class?

Your analogy fails for two reasons:
1. It's clearly flawed. Just because someone can lift both 100 tons and a pencil doesn't mean they can lift a 100-ton pencil. I'll leave you to figure out why as an exercise.

2. It does not quite relate to the discussion.

Moreover, you're contradicting yourself. You argue that she doesn't need Kevin's assistance, yet you're implying that she leaves to seek his help. Hence the reason for your faulty analogy.

You're also engaging in a no-limits fallacy. She was able to exit her show, which exists within the Disney app, and navigate that app, but only to a very limited degree. That's like me stepping outside my house and walking around my block—it doesn't imply I can go anywhere I want. Her ability to leave her show doesn't suggest she can leave the app or travel to places outside of it. She was barely able to move around within the app.

Finally, what exactly is 'outside' a forum fight?

Oh ok. So you made up something.

Yeah, that's why I dismissed it.

Originally posted by h1a8

No one in the real world is scripting the outcome of a forum fight. Even if I were in control of the plot, I couldn't be forced to do anything (not that I have the ability to change anything anyway). This ties back to my point about leaving the battlefield to seek outside help. Please address that point.

It’s been addressed already.

She-Hulk could easily toss you aside and rewrite your script. That’s not outside help, it’s her ability to break through the 4th wall.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It’s been addressed already.

She-Hulk could easily toss you aside and rewrite your script. That’s not outside help, it’s her ability to break through the 4th wall.

I don't have a script to rewrite, and neither does a forum debate. Breaking the 4th wall doesn't automatically grant that ability either. You're just making stuff up. Make sure your claims are backed by on-screen evidence.

Originally posted by h1a8
Make sure your claims are backed by on-screen evidence.

We have been providing on screen evidence. You just ignore it.

Originally posted by tkitna
We have been providing on screen evidence. You just ignore it.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't have a script to rewrite,

I was responding to this:

Originally posted by h1a8

No one in the real world is scripting the outcome of a forum fight. Even if I were in control of the plot, I couldn't be forced to do anything

You have a very short memory.

Originally posted by h1a8
and neither does a forum debate.

Forum debate includes her legit abilities. You don't get to pick and choose which abilities are allowed and which aren't due to your preferences.

Originally posted by h1a8
Breaking the 4th wall doesn't automatically grant that ability either.

She's done a lot more than that and you know it. You're fooling literally no one.

Originally posted by h1a8
You're just making stuff up. Make sure your claims are backed by on-screen evidence.

No you're making stuff up. We saw her break into the "real" world still in her She-Hulk form, and easily got to KEVIN. How easily can you meet Kevin Feige and bully him into changing the next MCU film/series into whatever you like?

Try to spare me a desperate response. It's about time you concede on this point and move on (I won't hold my breath though).

Originally posted by h1a8
You haven't provided any that support your claims. You are clearly making stuff up that is not supported by on-screen events.

What are you not getting here?

She broke the 4th wall and entered reality. On screen proof.

She bullied and manipulated Kevin, thus changing the outcome of the story. On screen proof.

What more on screen events do you need before you'll quit ignoring them?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I was responding to this:

1. You have a very short memory.

2. Forum debate includes her legit abilities. You don't get to pick and choose which abilities are allowed and which aren't due to your preferences.

3. She's done a lot more than that and you know it. You're fooling literally no one.

4. No you're making stuff up. We saw her break into the "real" world still in her She-Hulk form, and easily got to KEVIN. How easily can you meet Kevin Feige and bully him into changing the next MCU film/series into whatever you like?

Try to spare me a desperate response. It's about time you concede on this point and move on (I won't hold my breath though).

1. As I mentioned earlier, there is no script in a forum debate. This isn't a movie or a TV show with paid actors and cameraman.

2. Fictional characters aren't controlled by a script unless they are portrayed as actors in a film or show, following a company's paid script.

3. Her abilities include super strength, durability, and healing. While she can break the fourth wall in certain contexts (which doesn't apply here), that power is limited. She's only demonstrated communication with the audience and limited interaction with the Disney app, but outside of a forum battle, there's nothing for her to interact with. Nothing exists for her to even be in, outside the debate.

4. She cannot leave the battlefield to seek outside assistance. That point was made clear a while ago. This is WW vs She-Hulk, not WW vs She-Hulk and her allies.

Originally posted by tkitna
What are you not getting here?

She broke the 4th wall and entered reality. On screen proof.

She bullied and manipulated Kevin, thus changing the outcome of the story. On screen proof.

What more on screen events do you need before you'll quit ignoring them?

What is directly outside a forum debate? What physical space contains a forum debate? Nothing.

There is no Kevin here, no script, no cameras, no show, no movie, etc.

And even if there was then she isn't allowed to leave the battlefield to obtain outside assistance. That point was made clear a while ago.
WW vs She-Hulk isn't WW vs She-Hulk and her allies.