Dr. Octopus vs Sentinel (Matrix)

Originally posted by Thinkerer
So you are to decide how characters act, instead of the movie?

if you have a weapon that can efficiently beat your opponent, then why wouldn't you use it in a forum fight? i'm not reinventing the wheel here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When unconstrained by plot device, yes.

We are being efficient. Like a machine. No drawn out heroic battles here where the humans can get into their APCs and nobly sacrifice themselves in a blaze of glory.

Anthropomorphizing the sentinels is an unrealistic powerup imho

Being coldly efficient and denying the opponent the opportunity to have a sexy noble fight scene isn't really anthropomorphism, imo - if anything, it's the reverse.

Match starts, I'd argue the machine side just wishes to end the fight asap. It can see that Doc has long range tentacles - arguably longer than it's own.

Why get into a wrestling match, within range whilst it's own tentacles are too short? It makes no sense.

Giving the sentinel the ability to improvise definitely powers it up. That's a slippery slope that justifies the argument that squiddie could use its tow bomb as a makeshift grenade, in which case squiddie wins, but what a quick unsatisfying microwave meal of a match

I don't believe that squiddie should require a scripted "1v1 battle mode" in order for it to automatically use it's laser to cut it's way free of a trap, but even that is forfeit because we only ever see it use lasers for excavation.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
but what a quick unsatisfying microwave meal of a match

Ok, it seems some people here are having trouble articulating the real issues at play here. Let me see if i can't clear up some misconceptions.

The most contentious issue at play is the TOW Bombs, and whether or not they can play a role in the outcome of this match. Ok, so in the first Matrix movie, we see the Sentinels often have to be avoided by the Zion ships by powering down their systems and if needs be, charging an Electromagnetic Pulse device. It's demonstrated on screen that if a ship's primary systems are powered down, a Sentinel can't seem to confirm a target, even with numerous sensors at play, including visual, audio, or radar sensor sweeps. But the Machine's onboard AIs are not just idle, they are always learning we can assume. So, after incurring enough losses from this bait and EMP tactic Zion has been using for who knows how long, the machines develop the counter in question - the TOW bombs.

Now, these TOW bombs are thrown from outside the EMP range, though not necessarily outside of detection range, as demonstrated in the second movie. It wasn't necessarily clear if the Nebuchadnezzar was powered down when hit by the TOW bomb thrown at it, if it wasn't well then it should have been easy enough to detect and hit by the bomb's onboard rudimentary version of an AI (because the machines certainly wouldn't want to sacrifice fully functioning AI programs in suicide weapons, if Animatrix is anything to believe.) If the Nebuchadnezzar was powered down when the TOW bomb found it though, that changes the situation slightly, as we then have no way of knowing how it could track the ship as a target. If the TOWs had upgraded detection systems and better analysis capability, then it makes no sense why the other combat machines like the Sentinels didn't also receive the upgrade, especially considering the Sentinels are designed for combat at much closer range.

All that said, the crux of the argument is this - given what we know of these TOW bombs, can they target individual humans a like they do ships? My answer... unfortunately has to be a no. They were not designed and created to do that. They were designed as a countermeasure to the EMP. The logic doesn't follow that they would be used to target individual humans directly. Certainly humans would be killed via collateral damage and proximity to their detonations, but their primary purpose was to take out the ships. That being said, an argument COULD be made that Dr. Octopus's tentacles could have enough mass and power generation to be considered a viable target for the TOW's sensors to track, in which case, could Octopus's tentacle arms render him vulnerable to a TOW strike? I dunno, possibly. I couldn't say with any reasonable degree of certainty the tentacles provide enough mass and power to be noticable to a TOW's sensors to track as a viable target, but it's much more probable than a TOW targeting an ordinary human being with no additional mass and electrical power sources attached to their spine.

Anyway, that's my two cents, and it is still relatively speculative on my part, so you can take it with a grain of salt if you like, but I hope my words give a little more nuanced context to Thinkerer's argument and it helps.

Damn it, edit time ran out. Anyways another thing to consider, is that a Sentinel is not known for improvisation or tactical acumen. As stated by Tank and Dozer in the first movie, the Sentinels were built for one purpose - seek and destroy. That said, it does not seem likely that they would throw a TOW at a human target at the distance they were made to be thrown at, especially at a target they would have no idea was there at that range. At such a range, they can barely detect the presence of a Zion ship, and not well enough to confirm the target, hence why the TOWs had their own targeting and tracking sensors. The Sentinels essentially had to sit outside the EMP range, throw the TOWs and see if there was a ship there to hit. Thats what they were for. As for the Sentinels themselves vs a human target, they needed to confirm human presence with their visual sensors, as seen when they noticed Trinity and Neo inside the Nebuchadnezzar, and when they did their primary means of killing humans is through evisceration, or even with their lasers. they DIDN'T throw the TOWs at them directly at any point during the war, even when it would have made complete sense for them to do so, such as at the APU suits when they breached Zion's docks, and there were literally thousands of sentinels present during that assault, and all of them had plenty of room to throw the bombs. Instead, they opted to use their claws and lasers. Every single one.

if the matrix knows about doc oc, and can update squiddie's software and the tow bomb's software, squiddie wins. No need for precision, it would just be set to explode when it hits something. Or nevermind any of that. the matrix could invent some other known unknown devices to finish doc. A gatling spear gun lol whatever

If it's just squiddie from the matrix unaltered, it's dispatched easily I think. As others mention, Doc seems to have significantly longer tentacles, so there's no reason he would allow the sentinel within striking distance.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
if the matrix knows about doc oc, and can update squiddie's software and the tow bomb's software, squiddie wins. No need for precision, it would just be set to explode when it hits something. Or nevermind any of that. the matrix could invent some other known unknown devices to finish doc. A gatling spear gun lol whatever

If it's just squiddie from the matrix unaltered, it's dispatched easily I think. As others mention, Doc seems to have significantly longer tentacles, so there's no reason he would allow the sentinel within striking distance.

I'd say that if we're altering the Sentinels so it can compete by act of fiat like that, it'd need to be stipulated in the Opening Post would it not? But yes, I would agree with both points at face value.

Also, don't forget the squiddies were *not* just built to seek and destroy. The Animatrix made clear that they were originally construction units. So Dozer and Tank weren't correct.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, don't forget the squiddies were *not* just built to seek and destroy. The Animatrix made clear that they were originally construction units. So Dozer and Tank weren't correct.

It doesn't alter what they were used for during and after the war though. Yes, they were partly construction units during the creation of 01, but they were either retooled for war since then, or modern Sentinels and the construction 'squiddies' are two different things. Either way, the point remains so far.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
dude this isn't some hyper exotic tactic i'm talking about. throwing something at the person you're trying to kill is about as basic as it gets lol.

if you have a weapon that can efficiently beat your opponent, then why wouldn't you use it in a forum fight? i'm not reinventing the wheel here.

exactly. 👆

If multiple simple ways exist to defeat an opponent, you can't just pick the one you prefer if it contradicts the movies.

Sentinels have been shown to efficiently kill humans with their tentacles, as seen during the invasion of Zion. While a bomb or laser could also be effective, it might not be the smartest option since they both use more energy and the bomb endangers them. Your argument assumes they would always fly away from Otto at the start of the fight (to be safe from the bomb effects) and then throw bombs, which is an unreasonable expectation for how they engage humanoid combatants.

The evidence suggests they are actually that limited in intelligence, as they never once used lasers or bombs against individual targets, even when hundreds were being destroyed by machine guns. They aren't independent thinkers - they are machines following a programmed directive. It makes sense that they use bombs to destroy ships from a distance while relying on their tentacles to eliminate humanoid targets up close. This is also efficient from an energy usage viewpoint.

My stance is that if a character performs an action at least once, but has many contradictory low showings, I prioritize that one instance over the weaker ones. For example, if a Sentinel had been shown using a bomb or laser from a distance on a humanoid even once - despite 100 instances where they didn't, even while being massacred for hours - I would favor that single showing. However, we don't even have that one instance here. Their programming dictates their behavior, and they have only ever used bombs against ships from a distance and lasers to cut through hulls. Again, they are not individuals making tactical choices - they follow a set program.

Originally posted by h1a8
If multiple simple ways exist to defeat an opponent, you can't just pick the one you prefer if it contradicts the movies.

Sentinels have been shown to efficiently kill humans with their tentacles, as seen during the invasion of Zion. While a bomb or laser could also be effective, it might not be the smartest option since they both use more energy and the bomb endangers them. Your argument assumes they would always fly away from Otto at the start of the fight (to be safe from the bomb effects) and then throw bombs, which is an unreasonable expectation for how they engage humanoid combatants.

The evidence suggests they are actually that limited in intelligence, as they never once used lasers or bombs against individual targets, even when hundreds were being destroyed by machine guns. They aren't independent thinkers - they are machines following a programmed directive. It makes sense that they use bombs to destroy ships from a distance while relying on their tentacles to eliminate humanoid targets up close. This is also efficient from an energy usage viewpoint.

My stance is that if a character performs an action at least once, but has many contradictory low showings, I prioritize that one instance over the weaker ones. For example, if a Sentinel had been shown using a bomb or laser from a distance on a humanoid even once - despite 100 instances where they didn't, even while being massacred for hours - I would favor that single showing. However, we don't even have that one instance here. Their programming dictates their behavior, and they have only ever used bombs against ships from a distance and lasers to cut through hulls. Again, they are not individuals making tactical choices - they follow a set program.

It is a rare thing indeed when I am in complete agreement with H1, but in this instance, he is right. Besides the in canon reasons I described earlier, H1 raises a point that we simply do not see at any point the Sentinels deploy the TOW bombs for antipersonnel duties onscreen. There's no data for us to even determine how that would work, no examples.

Now, this is not to say Doctor Octopus wins the fight, at all. His tentacles may be longer (I dunno about that) but the Sentinel is larger and faster then he is, is capable of self propelled flight, and has many many more tentacles to work with. Plus it's capable of rending ship hulls with it's physical strength. I can say that the Sentinel might actually win more often than not in a 1 on 1 physical confrontation.

I'm unswayed. Regardless of the number of tentacles, 100 * too short = too short. If you think squiddie is powerful enough to work around doc's tentacles, that's another discussion entirely, but if not...

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
I'm unswayed. Regardless of the number of tentacles, 100 * too short = too short. If you think squiddie is powerful enough to work around doc's tentacles, that's another discussion entirely, but if not...

Thats the thing though, I can't tell if the tentacles are that long or strong enough, or even fast enough to do what you're suggesting. It's not like the Sentinel's own tentacles are short stubby and weak.

Have a look at the size and dimensions of a Sentinel.

Now compare this to the tentacles of Doc Oc, Which extends out to roughly 13 feet according to this and the difference in length is certainly not that dramatic, especially given the Sentinel can move itself and maneuver it's tentacles very quickly, and you understand why I have my doubts.

It doesn't require a huge difference in lengths for this dilemma to occur. Doc tosses full size SUVs with ease, so his tentacles should obviously be respected as their own unit/fighter (with a vulnerable meat bag attached.). Not to be redundant I know this has all been said. IMHO the only way squiddie wins this is a strength feat to beat truck tossing.

*Edit* Sentinels have an estimated total length of between 10’-15’ (3.05-4.57 m).

Seriously they couldn't just give us a damn number. Everything about the matrix is just so.... I'm starting to dislike matrix topics

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
It doesn't require a huge difference in lengths for this dilemma to occur. Doc tosses full size SUVs with ease, so his tentacles should obviously be respected as their own unit/fighter (with a vulnerable meat bag attached.). Not to be redundant I know this has all been said. IMHO the only way squiddie wins this is a strength feat to beat truck tossing.

I do believe them tearing through ship armored hulls, and ripping off the hover pads can easily at least match that if not exceed it in ways, as it's more difficult to rip something apart that weighs a shitload, and just picking it up and throwing it. That said, i have no way of quantifying the actual physical strength each thing would take to do, so I guess the strength feat argument is a wash?

Anyways, I did what I came in this thread to do, and explained about the TOW bombs, that was my primary reason for coming into this thread 😛

^Otto's most impressive strength feat is ripping out a several-foot-thick steel vault door. This not only demonstrates an immense amount of force but also proves that his tentacles are far more durable than steel. A feat easily exceeding a hundred tons of force.

@DS0- Right, they both have freak strength. I suppose there is enough data for some braniac to do the maths. Force required to toss that model truck's weight vs the force required to rip raw plate steel. One is probably way more than the other, making one of them the obvious winner, but it won't be me doing that math

Originally posted by h1a8
^Otto's most impressive strength feat is ripping out a several-foot-thick steel vault door. This not only demonstrates an immense amount of force but also proves that his tentacles are far more durable than steel. A feat easily exceeding a hundred tons of force.

Fair enough, I guess then it comes down to whether or not the tentacles can then catch the Sentinel and destroy it fast enough before the Sentinel eviscerates the meat bag attached to those tentacles. If they can catch and destroy the Sentinel first, Oc wins. If the Sentinel manages to slip in a few eviscerating strikes before being destroyed, the Sentinel wins as Oc either bleeds out, or his organs are shredded.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
@DS0- Right, they both have freak strength. I suppose there is enough data for some braniac to do the maths. Force required to toss that model truck's weight vs the force required to rip raw plate steel. One is probably way more than the other, making one of them the obvious winner, but it won't be me doing that math

Yeah, me neither. Aint got the werewithall for that level of investment in a vs debate anymore...