Hal and WW vs Superman

Originally posted by carver9
@H1...

I think Zod could replicate Superman's fts, yes. They are basically the same characters except Zod doesn't hold back. Superman even thinks they are equals. Zod will never be in Superman position of fts because he's no hero but Zod can beat Superman and Superman can beat Zod. I can't give Zod Superman fts though because thats not how this works. So do you think Superman and Zod are close or no? I'm asking for a reason.

"Gets Superman's feats" means that, in a forum fight, Zod would be operating at the same level Superman was when performing his highest-end feats.

So you're agreeing that in a forum setting, Zod would be granted the same level of speed, strength, and durability that Superman demonstrated during his top showings?

If not, then Zod isn't on Superman's level in a forum fight - because Superman will be operating at those levels in a forum fight.

Switching gears for a moment:
Superman is far more skilled with his powers than Zod. He wields his abilities with the precision of a Swiss army knife - versatile and refined. I also don't think Zod fully understands, knows, and or has mastered all of his powers the way Superman has.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's how it starts just to prevent the whole blitz debate. after that they have a bit of time to plan so can do whatever they want from there. i think the team likely takes it. hal's feats and diana's magic is a tough combo.

Originally posted by h1a8
"Gets Superman's feats" means that, in a [B]forum fight, Zod would be operating at the same level Superman was when performing his highest-end feats.

So you're agreeing that in a forum setting, Zod would be granted the same level of speed, strength, and durability that Superman demonstrated during his top showings?

If not, then Zod isn't on Superman's level in a forum fight - because Superman will be operating at those levels in a forum fight.

Switching gears for a moment:
Superman is far more skilled with his powers than Zod. He wields his abilities with the precision of a Swiss army knife - versatile and refined. I also don't think Zod fully understands, knows, and or has mastered all of his powers the way Superman has. [/B]

I disagree with all of this. If Zod is a 7, where would you put holding back Superman since he's a 10? Answer carefully.

Zod scales up from Superman ducklips, Superman doesn't scale down from Zod. That's not how it works.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Zod scales up from Superman ducklips, Superman doesn't scale down from Zod. That's not how it works.

If Zod is a 7 and Superman is a 10, where would you put holding back Superman? Superman himself said Zod is his equal.

Why do character statements suddenly count?

Originally posted by carver9
I disagree with all of this. If Zod is a 7, where would you put holding back Superman since he's a 10? Answer carefully.

1. Superman holding back doesn't affect his durability, perception speed, movement speed, or maximum strength. The only factor to rank is his power output - how strong his attacks are.

2. If Superman holds back, it only continues until he's at risk of losing. Once that happens, he progressively lets loose to avoid defeat. Starting the fight holding back and finishing it at higher output doesn't reflect his overall rating.

3. Holding back Superman is situational, as his power output varies depending on the opponent. He holds back more against Batman, less against Aquaman, even less against Zod, and even less against Darkseid. So we can't just give a blind rating to a holding back Superman.

Lastly, this is a debate forum.
That means debate - state each point you disagree with and give your reasons.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. If Superman holds back, it only continues until he's at risk of losing. Once that happens, he progressively lets loose to avoid defeat.

Originally posted by ODG
Superman (like every phucking superhero) has lost fights many times on-panel. You can argue that he should not have, but do not pretend he has not on-panel.

^ Given your well-documented attitude towards me, this strikes me as insulting h1a8.

In a conversation that had nothing to do with you.

And you keep pretending you aren't obsessed with me? Like you didn't chase after me for 200+ posts across 10+ years while being ignored? jfc

Originally posted by ODG
^ Given your well-documented attitude towards me, this strikes me as insulting h1a8.

In a conversation that had nothing to do with you.

And you keep pretending you aren't obsessed with me? Like you didn't chase after me for 200+ posts across 10+ years while being ignored? jfc

It's a public forum, I'll post whatever I want. Deal with it, retard.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'll post whatever I want but I will pretend that I am not singularly butthurt obsessed over one such KMC poster even though I end up chasing them for 200+ posts across 10+ years even though they put me on ignore

Originally posted by ODG
Yes, well. So long as you own to it. 👆

^ Comparing with you crying in every thread about me for 200+ posts across 10+ years while you were ignored?

laughcry

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Superman holding back doesn't affect his durability, perception speed, movement speed, or maximum strength. The only factor to rank is his power output - how strong his attacks are.

2. If Superman holds back, it only continues until he's at risk of losing. Once that happens, he progressively lets loose to avoid defeat. Starting the fight holding back and finishing it at higher output doesn't reflect his overall rating.

3. Holding back Superman is situational, as his power output varies depending on the opponent. He holds back more against Batman, less against Aquaman, even less against Zod, and even less against Darkseid. So we can't just give a blind rating to a holding back Superman.

Lastly, this is a debate forum.
That means debate - state [B]each point you disagree with and give your reasons. [/B]

Answer my question, please.

Originally posted by ODG
Superman (like every phucking superhero) has lost fights many times on-panel. You can argue that he should not have, but do not pretend he has not on-panel.

You're taking me out of context and completely misunderstanding the exchange between me and Carv. I'm well aware that Superman has lost in a comic. Carv asked me to rank a holding back Superman compared to Zod, and I gave him two reasons why that's not possible.

The second reason - the one you're responding to - is essentially pointing out that Superman may start the fight holding back but can progressively hold back less and less to avoid defeat. That means his rating shifts throughout the fight. Variable levels of holding back are not the same as assigning a specific, fixed level of restraint.

I'm more than willing to have a discussion with you without any insults. I'm a reasonable person, more than my past self, and misunderstandings happen - after all, we're only human.

Originally posted by carver9
Answer my question, please.

You want me to answer your question, yet you disagree with me without giving any reasons—how is that a debate?

In any case, I've given two reasons why the question can't be answered and one reason why it doesn't capture the full picture.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Superman holding back doesn't affect his durability, perception speed, movement speed, or maximum strength. The only factor to rank is his power output - how strong his attacks are.

2. If Superman holds back, it only continues until he's at risk of losing. Once that happens, he progressively lets loose to avoid defeat. Starting the fight holding back and finishing it at higher output doesn't reflect his overall rating.

3. Holding back Superman is situational, as his power output varies depending on the opponent. He holds back more against Batman, less against Aquaman, even less against Zod, and even less against Darkseid. So we can't just give a blind rating to a holding back Superman.

Reason 2 explains his level of restraint can change in the fight, unless you ko him before that happens.

Reason 3 explains that his level of restraint is different for different combatants.

Those reasons show that we can not assign a fixed rating.

Prove that his level of restraint is different. Show me the levels of restraints he use against Zod. I want to see it going up while fighting him.

Originally posted by carver9
Prove that his level of restraint is different. Show me the levels of restraints he use against Zod. I want to see it going up while fighting him.

Why are you asking me to show you things I never even claimed?

I think he obviously fights Batman with the same power level he does when fighting Doomsday 👆 Carver is very wise.

Batman is just that awesome.